Interview: Mel Gibson

Dark Horizons ^ | February 16, 2004 | Paul Fischer

[MaryFromMichigan]

You know the rule about Ann Coulter posts, don't you?

Well, I think we ladies should benefit from a similar rule for Mel Gibson posts!

I'll be right back....

[Antoninus]

I just can't figure out how the monk got airborne. There's no ramp.

It's all about getting lift by jamming the tail of the board onto the ground with the back foot while jumping at the same time. I used to be able to do it way back when...

[MaryFromMichigan]

[ultima ratio]

This is disingenuous. It's the Vatican that makes the complete break, talking about conforming to what they call "the conciliar Church"--meaning the Church of Vatican II. It's also the Vatican that suffers from amnesia, never referring to preconciliar popes or councils or documents, rejecting its own history by apologizing excessively for it. It is the Vatican that talks about a "New Advent" and "Second Pentecost" and has attempted to obliterate the Church's own past, even fabricating its own new liturgy. Don't blame traditionalists for any of the present nonsense--blame the regime in Rome which has been aggressively hostile to Tradition now for four decades.

[Maximilian]

getting more and more like George Carlin's part in the movie Dogma

I wouldn't watch the movie "Dogma" under pain of death, but I did hear about George Carlin's bit and it sounded hilarious: the bishop's new advertising campaign for the diocese: "Buddy Christ" with 2 thumbs up -- no more of that "downer" crucifixion business.

[GOP_Thug_Mom]

Hey, Max. I appreciate your pings. that second picture is a total nightmare. But I don't think it's fair to use the term "Vatican II Catholics" to describe those responsible for that ridiculous sideshow. JMHO

[Maximilian]

Your slur on "Vatican II Catholics", which improperly implies the existence of a new Church since Vatican II, is unwarranted and unfair.

Compare the pictures for yourself. Do these represent the same Church? It looks like a different one to me. And guess who agrees with me? All of the liberals who are running our dioceses and our Vatican hierarchy. They claim that there is such a thing as a "Vatican II Church." They are only to eager to denounce anything that smells of the "pre-conciliar Church." So apparently you are alone in believing that they aren't different.

[Smocker]

Implies?

It did not imply anything, it was a clear statement of fact, Is there a defense for picture 2?

[Smocker]

NOt to mention the fact every time a neo catholic speaks about the Traditionalists they call them, pre Vatican II Catholics. Now, what is that supposed to mean, if not, that they themselves consider the pre and post Vatican II eras to be 2 different churches.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

Is that what that looks like - a Franciscan Friar skateboarding in mid-air over top of clergymen? What would be the point of something like that?

[GOP_Thug_Mom]

Just curious--who are you following? And who do you trust?

Your attitude is too similar to every other Protestant who leaves the Church. Your bitter rantings do Tradionalists no good at all. Prayer and sacrifice are what Our Lady calls for on our behalf. Then trust Him to take care of His Church.

[Maximilian]

I don't think it's fair to use the term "Vatican II Catholics" to describe those responsible for that ridiculous sideshow.

I appreciate your effort to take the most charitable possible approach. However, you should be aware that this is most conservative possible group of "Vatican II Catholics" -- these are not some whacked out liberals. This friar belongs to Fr. Groschel's group. These are the ones who are totally loyal to "JPII, we love you!" These are the stars of EWTN. These are the leaders of the Youth Renew movement. These are the "adherents to the magisterium."

The stuff you get from the liberals is even worse. This after all, is just a silly stunt. If it were liberals, they would be doing this a part of Mass. If you can have "liturgical dancing," why not "liturgical skateboarding"?

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

During my professional involvement with Catholic education (and, indeed, during my father's career), there was a great deal of effort to make sure there was never anything goofy or unsound about the representations of Catholicism.
My question: So what happened? What happened in American Catholic culture which led to this season of silliness?
If it wasn't Vatican II, what was it? How did we ever get to clown Catholicism or sock puppet Catholicism?

[Diago]

Max, here are some helpful hints from the Diocese of Cleveland. We may all want to reflect upon these as the release of "The Passion" nears:

Dos and Don'ts When Teaching or Preaching About Jesus' Ministry

Don'ts	Do's
Messianic Expectations
speak of a single expectation	indicate that there were many ideas about messiah(s)
say that the prophets predicted a messiah to come	say that some of the prophets looked for the Day of the Lord when justice and peace would prevail.
Jesus as a Jew
speak about Jesus as if he were not Jewish	stress that as a Jewish child, Jesus was inspired to love Yhwh
claim that the "love command" or calling God "Abba" were unique to Jesus	say that other preachers also called God "Abba" and combined Dt 6:4 and Lev 19:18
Jesus and Jewish Contemporaries
portray first-century Judaism as legalistic, joyless, burdensome, or heartless	describe first-century as a dynamic exchange among many ideas
contrast Old Testament "justice" with New Testament "love"	speak of Jesus as rooted in the Hebrew experience of God as loving, just, and merciful
imply that there were universal norms for purity, kosher customs, or Sabbath observance	say that these topics were widely debated by first-century Jews, including Jesus
The Pharisees
describe them as hypocrites, legalists, or self-righteous	describe them as creatively seeking to bring Temple holiness to everyday life
portray them monolithically	portray them as having various "schools" of thought
describe them only as Jesus' foes	state that they were closest to Jesus in many ways
involve them with the crucifixion	distance them from the crucifixion
Jesus' Crucifixion
attribute to the Jewish people or unspecified "leaders"	ascribe to Roman officials and Jewish collaborators such as Caiaphas
discuss blasphemy as claiming to be divine	discuss blasphemy as being arrogantly presumptuous
describe a formal Sanhedrin "trial"	describe a hearing before Caiaphas and cronies
portray Pilate as seeking Jesus' release or crowds demanding Jesus' death	discuss that Caiaphas was appointed by Pilate, that Pilate was eventually removed as prefect for cruelty, and that Jesus was popular with the people at large (as seen by his clandestine arrest)
attribute Jesus' death to non-political "religious" motives	link Jesus' death with the politically charged Passover season, Jesus' Kingdom preaching, and Jesus' criticisms of the Temple leaders.
employ the Gospel passion narratives in a simplistic, uncritical manner	be aware of the apologetic and polemical forces that helped shape the Gospel passion narratives

Philip A. Cunningham

"What We Teach Our Children: Misconceptions in Jewish and Catholic Classrooms" Over the past 15 years, the Jewish-Catholic Colloquium has gathered to promote respect and enhance knowledge of both religions. In addition to the Colloquium, educators and catechetical leaders gathered on March 19th to discuss "What We Teach Our Children: Misconceptions in Jewish and Catholic Classrooms". The event was co-sponsored by the Office of Catechetical Services, the Anti-Defamation League and Interfaith Commission and was designed to help eliminate prejudices and misconceptions that may unintentionally be taught about each other in respective classrooms. Guest speakers included Dr. Philip Cunningham, Executive Director, Center for Christian-Jewish Learning at Boston College, and Dr. Eugene Korn, Director of Interfaith Affairs for the Anti-Defamation League. Dr. Cunningham has worked extensively with enriching the relationships between Christian and Jews and has many resources available on the Center for Christian-Jewish Learning website. Specifically, he shared the Ten New Christian Convictions About Jews and Judaism (.pdf) and Do's and Don't When Teaching or Preaching About Jesus' Ministry.  Dr. Korn is currently the Director of Interfaith Affairs at the Anti-Defamation League.  He is an Adjunct Professor in the Christian-Jewish Department at Seton Hall University in NJ.  This winter he was ordained a rabbi after studying many years in Israel.  He writes and lectures widely in the US and Israel on Christian-Jewish relations. Dr. Cunningham and Rabbi Korn gave the educators present an understanding of the new Christian convictions about Jews and Judaism that have been recently agreed upon by the major Christian churches.  They stressed that Jews and Christians are spiritual allies and we need to respect the gap between the Catholics and the Jews.  There has been much progress made in recent years along this line.  Dr. Cunningham explained that Jews today remain in a covenantal relationship with God.  In the past some of our Christian tradition and biblical text have contributed to historical anti-Semitism.  These texts need to be properly understood in order to avoid this prejudice.   [Return to Newest News]

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2 posted on 04/24/2003 4:26:54 PM EDT by Diago

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[Maximilian]

Dos and Don'ts When Teaching or Preaching About Jesus' Ministry

Unbelievable -- just when you think they can't astound you any more. This is nothing but apostasy. If only the diocese of Cleveland could have been around in Jesus' time to remind him not to call the pharisees, "Hypocrites, vipers, white-washed sepulchres." This is a denial of the entire meaning of the Gospel, since these people claim there was never a "prediction of a messiah to come."

Archbishop Lefebvre wrote an article back in 1974 (that caused his original suspension) called, "Must one become a protestant in order to remain a member of the Catholic Church?" The diocese of Cleveland has no difficulty answering "Yes."

[Diago]

"Must one become a protestant in order to remain a member of the Catholic Church?"

Soon, at least in the Diocese of Cleveland, the question will be "Must one become a pagan in order to remain a member of the Catholic Church?"

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

"Must one become a pagan in order to remain a member of the Catholic Church?" 36 posted on 02/16/2004 1:32:20 PM PST by Diago

This would be funny, if it were not so true.

[Unam Sanctam]

I have never in my years as a Catholic seen anything remotely similar to the scene in your second photo. It certainly does not represent my experience with the Catholic Church. It must be very exceptional to see skateboarding monks, as I have never seen that, and I have been to a large number of Catholic churches in many parts of the world. As for clerics and religious having recreation. I seem to recall a photograph from the 1940s or 1950s of a priest in full cassock playing soccer with orphan kids. I don't see how that is any different from your picture. The Catholic Church is the same Body of Christ, before and after Vatican II. Your attempt to say that the Church is a new Church after Vatican II is modernist heresy. Sacred Tradition cannot be changed. Consequently, you are simply producing one photograph, claiming that it represents what you call a "Vatican II Church". Your Vatican II Church is not what I know the Catholic Church to be. It is merely a straw man caricature created by schismatic propagandists who want to justify their unjustified rebellion against the legitimate authority of the Pope.

[Unam Sanctam]

Thanks for confirming your schismatic views. You admit that you view the Catholic Church as a different Church a "new" Church of Vatican II. The Catholic Church and the Pope make no such claim. Thus you confirm that you are outside the visible Catholic Church that has been entrusted to the apostles and their successors.

[Apple Pan Dowdy]

I just got here.

Lets don't let this thread turn into a fight about catholic vs. protestant! Lets have more of those cute photos of Mel!