Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

To: freebilly
From: Gibson’s “The Passion”

I’m a bit confused.< The movie is in the “original” languages, Aramaic and Latin, but the Mediterranean world of the first century spoke Greek as a result of Hellenization, later adopted by the Roman Empire (though they still spoke Latin in Rome). All of the books in the New Testament—including Romans—were written in the Hellenistic Greek of this period, as was the most popular translation of the Hebrew Scriptures of that day, the Septuagint.

Shouldn’t Jesus and Pilate be speaking Greek in the movie? Naturally the Roman rulers spoke Latin, but Greek was the lingua franca of the Empire. The Jewish leaders would have spoken Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek, and certainly Jesus and the disciples, being from “Galilee of the Gentiles,” would have known Greek but nary a word of Latin. Still, if you insist on Pilate speaking Latin, why use the ecclesiastical pronunciation (rather than the classical) when “church” Latin obviously did not exist at the time!

--------------------------------------

Greek was the first language for most educated Romans and for Romans stationed in the East. Most Romans spoke beter Greek then they did Latin.

Even in Rome the Christians did not speak in Latin. From http://www.catacombe.roma.it/en/cripta.html

THE CRYPT OF THE POPES

It is the most sacred and important place in these catacombs, discovered by the great archaeologist de Rossi in 1854, and labelled by him as " the little Vatican, the central monument of all Christian cemeteries". It originated towards the 2nd C. as a private crypt. When the "First Area" came under the direct dipendence of the Church of Rome, it was thought suitable to transform that burial chamber into the cemetery of the Popes.

The sepulchres, now empty, once contained the remains of 9 Popes and of 8 Bishops of the 3rd century. You can still see the original inscriptions on the wall, though broken and incomplete, regarding five of the Popes. Their names are written in Greek, following the official usage of the Church in that time.

On four tombstones, next to the name of the Pontiff, there is the title of epì(scopos), which means "bishop", because he was the head of the Church of Rome. The title papa (pope - father), became exclusive to the bishop of Rome during the 4th century. On two slabs some years later was added the abbreviation MRT ("martyr", which means "witness").This title was given to the Christians who had witnessed their faith in Christ, by shedding their blood.

Among the names of the Popes, written on the tombstones in Greek, are:

St. Fabian (236-250) was a Roman and was elected pope on the death of St. Antherus. His pastoral ministry of 14 years coincided with a period of religious peace. He was a great organiser of the Church of Rome. He divided the city into seven ecclesiastical regions, each with its tituli (parishes), clergy and catacombs He died by decapitation during the persecution of emperor Decius.

This is St. Fabian's name written in Greek:

Pontius Pilate's designed coins for Judea and while the coins are Roman coins, the words on them are Greek.


14 posted on 01/21/2004 11:35:08 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies ]


To: MarMema; The_Reader_David; FormerLib
You might enjoy reading #14
17 posted on 01/21/2004 11:47:06 PM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies ]

To: Destro
Shouldn’t Jesus and Pilate be speaking Greek in the movie? Naturally the Roman rulers spoke Latin, but Greek was the lingua franca of the Empire. The Jewish leaders would have spoken Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek, and certainly Jesus and the disciples, being from “Galilee of the Gentiles,” would have known Greek but nary a word of Latin. Still, if you insist on Pilate speaking Latin, why use the ecclesiastical pronunciation (rather than the classical) when “church” Latin obviously did not exist at the time!

Jesus and his disciples preached in Aramaic. Would he have spoken to Pilate in Greek? I tend to think he would have spoken in Aramaic and his terse responses to Pilate were translated for Pilate's benefit.

Pilate may have spoken Greek to the educated Jews of the day, but I tend to think that the average Roman soldier growled his way through the streets in a vulgar blend of Latin, Greek, and Aramaic.

The problem is that the Gospels come to us long after the death of Christ, and the particulars of language are omitted in the telling.

I'll settle for Aramaic and Latin. I don't think the movie will gain in power by having Pilate and Caiaphas conversing in koine Greek....

18 posted on 01/22/2004 12:01:29 AM PST by freebilly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies ]

To: Destro
"Greek was the lingua franca of the Empire. "

Ridiculous. The Roman upper classes and educated elements in the eastern part of the Empire spoke Greek, but the Lingua Franca of the Empire was Latin. All official business was written in Latin, and the varioous subject people continued to speak their own language for come time afer Romanization. Certainly the Jews who resisted Romanization more vigorously than most, continued to speak Aramaic.


Certainly, Legionaries were trained in Latin and few, if any were Greek. Most were from the western part of the Empire, Italy, and parts of Europe like Gaul.
41 posted on 01/22/2004 4:33:46 AM PST by ZULU (Remember the Alamo!!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies ]

To: Destro
Greek was the lingua franca of the Eastern Roman Empire, as it had been in this area since the time of Alexander the Great. However, its usage was probably similar to that of English in India: the language of international commerce and, under the British Raj, the law. The average Indian usually knows little, if any, English, and ordinarily converses in Hindi or one of the other languages of the subcontinent. From certain contexts, for example, Jesus' conversation with the Roman captain who wanted his child healed, it is probable that Christ spoke koine Greek. However, this does not mean that His apostles necessarily spoke the language during the time of His ministry, though in later life, Peter, John, and James had learned it, as evidenced by their epistles. Nor is it necessarily true that all Jesus' opponents knew Greek, particularly the Pharisees, who were zealous in their preservation of Jewish law and custom. Like the Gaelic revivalists of the last century in Ireland, they probably supported the use of their nation's ancient language in opposition to the tongue of the foreign occupiers.

The sign written on Jesus' cross, "King of the Jews," was written in Latin, Greek, and Aramaic. It is therefore evident that Latin must have had some degree of circulation in 1st Century Israel. The use of Greek by the Roman elite was not unlike the use of French by the upper classes in England, Germany, Poland, and Russia in the 17th, 18th, and 19th Centuries. Having the ability to speak in French helped the aristocracy and the haute bourgeoisie of these northern nations distinguish themselves from their less cultured countrymen. It also encouraged a type of transnational society of noble or wealthy people throughout Europe with its own language, a secular version of the transnational character of the medieval Catholic Church.

Thus, a Roman governor may communicate with a Jewish high priest in koine Greek, as Pilate probably did with Caiphas. However, when that governor talked with military officers and particularly the lower ranks, he would have reverted to his native tongue, much as a member of the Russian aristocracy would have done. The New Testament (Acts 10:1) makes reference to the "Italian Regiment." As another poster alluded to in his post, one Roman legion in Israel in Jesus' time was drawn from Spain. Keep in mind that the Romans used their native Latin, and not Greek, in their dealings in Western and Central Europe. (Their "vulgar Latin" was the ancestor of Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, and Romanian.) Thus, the legionaries, if they knew any tongue other than their native Gallo-Iberian, would have spoken Latin. Their commanders, and even the governor, would have addressed them in that language as a result.

Gibson's guesses about language usage at the time of Christ's Crucifixion are probably not too far off the mark.

57 posted on 01/22/2004 8:16:59 AM PST by Wallace T.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson