I hated Rotk (vanity ranting thread) ((spoiler alert))

ME | Today- december 18th, 2003 | Me

[discostu]

Aragorn's ranger gig is avoiding his true responsibilities and avoiding being a leader of men.

[Overtaxed]

I hope you're talking about the movie Aragorn because the book Aragorn was a leader of men...of the Rangers, of Gondor (under the name of Thorongil) during the reign of Denethor's father and he also led the men of Rohan at one point. You need to read or re-read the Appendices.

[discostu]

10 - The books had songs, the movie wisely dropped 99% of the songs and used much shorter much more effective wisecracks instead.

15 - I didn't notice any camera work like that. Maybe you had a bad print. I saw FOTR on a bad print and totally hated the Balrog until I saw him in TTT (in the print I saw of FOTR the Balrog looked like bad 1950s rotoscoping).

27 - As I recall the prologue the blast had a safe zone right around Sauron of about 50 feet, everything outside that fell down like a crop circle but inside was left unaffected.

30 - The Town Too Tough To Die, where the Gunfight at the OK Coral happened. Great place to hang out if you're into westerns, really nice people, good lemonade in the diner south of the bookstore.

32 - I'm really starting to think you had a junk print.

[discostu]

I've always seen Aragorn as a Hamlet: avoiding responsibility until he absolutely positive must take it. PJ's interpretation is right in line with mine.

[Overtaxed]

Well I kinda thought of Aragorn's pre-king stuff as sort of a "leadership training" period. I'll have to go re-read the Appendices myself since I can't remember why he didn't claim his kingship during the stewardship of Denethor's father. I understand why he didn't after Denethor became steward: the last thing Gondor needed was an internal power struggle while the Enemy on its border was growing stronger.

[discostu]

By the same token given how poorly Denethor was managing the defenses of Gondor getting him out sooner rather than later might have been a good thing. That's a 6 of 1 half dozen of the other situation.

[BradyLS]

Magnificent post! I agree with your take about Bernard Hill's portrayal of Theoden. For me, the movie version of The Return of the King will always apply to King Theoden of Rohan.

One other thing in Hill's favor is that his charcter undergoes a much greater transofrmation in the films. He goes from haggard, sickly, and ancient to a vigourous middle aged man in a few short hours.

Sadly, Viggo's character does undergo such an extreme transformation, but there was certainly room for him to grow from the grim, wandering Strider into noble, gracious king of Gondor. For whatever reason, many of his best character scenes are robbed of him on the theatrical release. Those can only help, if played right.

[BradyLS]

His responsibility as king is to Gondor, a place he avoids. As a ranger he's just one guy in a troop, not even in charge, his responsibility is to be in charge.

Have you read the books? Aragorn is chief of the Dunedain, the last of the High-King's realm of Arnor. The Rangers are the remains of the people of Arnor, whose king (the High King) had dominion over the realms of both Arnor and Gondor. The movie shows, but does not quite tell, that Isildur was High King of both Arnor and Gondor and was returning with the Ring to the High King's court in the north (Annuminas) before he was waylaid and killed by the orcs. Gandalf sums it up to Pippin before he meets with Denethor in the books.

So Aragorn is not some guy in a troop of soldiers who happens to be the descendent of Isildur. He is King of all the Dunedain in the West. That is, the rightful heir of both Arnor and Gondor. No one disputes this in Rivendell. In the books, Elrond calls him The Dunedain. The Man of the West. And he's been to Gondor before. In fact, he's been all over Middle_earth. But you'd only know that from reading the books.

That he comes across merely as some guy in a troop is not Tolkien's fault, but Jackson's.

[discostu]

Yeah he's got all the great titles but he doesn't actually LEAD. He flees from responsibility, ala Hamlet.

[BradyLS]

Yeah he's got all the great titles but he doesn't actually LEAD. He flees from responsibility, ala Hamlet.

You keep telling yourself that. Let me know when you read the books, okay?

[Snuffington]

Yeah he's got all the great titles but he doesn't actually LEAD. He flees from responsibility, ala Hamlet.

I thought the true test of leadership was whether anyone actually follows you. In these movies armies are lining up to follow Aragorn (even moreso than in the books).

(Ack! Am I actually jumping into a heated LOTR thread?! Am I freaking nuts?!)

[discostu]

Stick your condescension. I read the books 17 years ago and I stand by my interpretation: titles, no actual leadership of men until deep into the story.

[discostu]

In the end that's what it boils down to, especially when they follow into harms way and follow you on things that go beyond mere logistical decisions. The ultimate display of leadership for Aragorn in the movies is when the army of Rohan almost disbands when he leaves, he had become their leader, Theoden had to move quickly to resume control when Aragorn needed to take a different path.

[BradyLS]

I thought the true test of leadership was whether anyone actually follows you. In these movies armies are lining up to follow Aragorn (even moreso than in the books).

The theatrical release does a poor job, IMO, of recreating Tolkien's original Aragorn. Much is missing from the theatrical release of the movie that is central to Aragorn in the books: His esteem in Rivendell; The Rangers of the North that (should have) joined him in Helm's Deep; His challenge to Sauron with the Orthanc Palantir; His summoning of the Dead at the Stone of Erech; His command among actual flesh-and-blood human beings (and not only the Army of the Dead) during his sweep through Lebennin and on the Fields of the Pelennor; his feats at the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith; his dismissal of the Fainthearted by allowing them to guard the fords at Cair Andros and so allow them to keep honor; his parley with the Mouth of Sauron before the Black Gate; and the honor he gives the hobbits during the coronation.

He does these things in the books but we see only the honor done to the hobbits in the theatrical release. The fans only wanted a few of these things, such as the challenge to Sauron, the Houses of Healings, and the parley at the Black Gate, but we'll probably have to wait for the theatrical release for these.

[BradyLS]

First you said: I've always seen Aragorn as a Hamlet: avoiding responsibility until he absolutely positive must take it. PJ's interpretation is right in line with mine.

And then you said: Stick your condescension. I read the books 17 years ago and I stand by my interpretation: titles, no actual leadership of men until deep into the story.

Keep reading. I have a lead on you! ;-)

It is clear that my condesenscion is exceeded only by your arrogance. "Jackson is right in line with me." I'm sure PJ will be gratified to learn it. And you may stand where you wish, but you're already hip deep. Don't let it get above your nose! :-D

[BradyLS]

Just a part of something that Tolkien wrote about Aragorn and Arwen that folks here might like:

===

"But when Estel [Aragorn] was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond; and Elrond looked upon him and was pleased, for he saw that he was fair and noble and was early come to manhood, though he would yet become greater in body and mind. That day therefore Elrond called him by his true name, and told him who he was and whose son; and he delivered to him the heirlooms of his house. ...

"'Here is the ring of Barahir,' he said, 'the token of our kinship from afar; and here also are the shards of Narsil [later reforged as Anduril]. With these you may yet do great deeds; for I foretell that that the span of your life shall be greater than the measure of men, unless evil befalls you or you fail the test. The scepter of Annuminas I withhold, for you have yet to earn it.' ...

[Regarding Arwen, to Elrond:] "'I see,' said Arargorn, 'that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desireed. Such is my fate.' Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said, "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid to your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth.' ...

"'Truly,' said Elrond. 'Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass. But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyomd the end of the world. You do not know what you desire of me.'...

"Then Aragorn took leave lovingly of Elrond; and the next day he said farewell to his mother, and to the House of Elrond, and to Arwen, and he went out into the wild. For nearly thirty years he labored in the cause against Sauron; and he became a great friend of Gandalf the Wise, from whom he gained much wisdom. With him he made many perilous journeys, but at as the years wore on he went more often alone. His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look at, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. For he wnt in many guises, and won renown under many names, He rode in the host of the Rohirrim [the Riders of Rohan], and fought for the lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of the Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men both good and evil and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron...

[Many years later, in Lothlorien, Arwen saw Aragorn, then 49 years old:] "But Aragorn was grown to his full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-greyand a bright gem on his brow. Then more thanany kind of Man he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after thier long parting; and as he came walking towards herunder the trees of Caras Galadon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed. ...

"...And so it stood afterwards between Elrond and Aragorn and they spoke no more of this matter; but Aragorn went forth again to danger and toil. [The slacker! ;-)] And while the world darkened and fear fell on Middle-earth, as the power of Sauron grew and [the tower of] Barad-dur rose ever taller and stronger, Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly standard, such as only one might display who claimed the lorship of the Numenoreans and the inheritence of Elendil."

--in part from The Tale of aragorn and Arwen, from the Appendices of The Return of the King, by J.R.R. Tolkien

[discostu]

Jackson is right in line with my interpretation. Notice I don't feel the need to insult people that disagree with me, that's YOUR forte. You're free to have your own interpretation, I have mine, PJ has his, in this instance PJ agrees with me. I'm sure there's other sections of the books where he agrees with me and disagrees with you. Such is life.

Now really, cram your condescension and your arogance. If you want to DISCUSS it I'm more than open to it. If you're just going to be insulting I've got no need for you.

[BradyLS]

If you want to DISCUSS it I'm more than open to it. If you're just going to be insulting I've got no need for you.

We're waiting. I've offered proof. You've offered hot air. Jackson may be in line with you, but neither one of you are in line with the source material. That's not life, that's your choice.

[discostu]

Proof?! I've told you what my INTERPRETATION is. Take a step back and get this into perspective dude.

[BradyLS]

Yes. If Jackson's interepretation of Aragorn's character is in line with yours, where is the proof in the book to support it? Both of you use Tolkien's novel to draw your character from. You (and Jackson, if I follow,) say Aragorn dodges responsibility and won't go near Gondor or lead men in battle unless he absolutely has to.

The books say otherwise and I've offered part of the Appendices as proof. There is more. But, first, I want to learn from you about this shirker version of Aragorn that you and Jackson found in the books. He sounds unlike the Aragorn that I read about and hoped to see on screen.

For others reading along, let me say I enjoyed the Return of the King and didn't hate it. I do share sympathy with those people who would have liked Aragorn to be closer to the man in the novels. I simply don't confuse the two.

Others, it appears, think they are one in the same. The irony is that Peter Jackson is not one of these people. He has always said that the films are not the books and that his trilogy is a work "made by Tolkien fans, for Tolkien fans." Jackson's Argorn is a fabrication of Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens and based in part on Tolkien's character. They are not the same.