New Record-Setting Living Fossil Flabbergasts Scientists

Creation-Evolution Headlines ^ | 12/5/2003 | Creation-Evolution Headlines

[snowballinhell]

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=138942 http://www.team.ars.usda.gov/symposium/1994/twelve.html http://ejournal.sinica.edu.tw/bbas/content/2002/2/bot432-07.html http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:EPOS80CWaRwJ:www.ivis.org/advances/Zhao/zhang3/IVIS.pdf+%22interspecies+crosses%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 http://www.patentec.com/data/class/defs/800/269.html http://www.isleofviewirisgarden.com/catalog_pages/species_isc/species_1.htm http://www.biology.iupui.edu/biocourses/N100H/ch17spec.html http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/stories/s11024.htm

NOT ONE has the dog and cat offspring you cite but the mixing of LILY's in one and a camel to a TYPE of camel in another. Where is fido and fluffy?

So are lions and tigers the same species? How about llamas and camels? Zebras and horses?

Yes one would expect a lion and a tiger or a zebra and a horse to be able breed(altough producing sterile offspring) when forced by humans into an un-natural enviroment.

[donh]

Yes one would expect a lion and a tiger or a zebra and a horse to breed when forced by humans into an unnatural environment.

What has that to do with the price of tea in china? I thought your were maintaining that there is a natural barrier between cross-species fertilizations? Answer the question. Are lions and tigers of the same species, or not?

[donh]

(altough producing sterile offspring)

Apparently, you have not finished reading the articles I cited. While mules are, indeed, sterile, jennies are not. Are you also maintaining that horses and donkeys are, in fact, of the same species?

[donh]

Now brewing up a new star would be impressive, but creating life which is obviously so simple it can happen anywhere, should not be that tough.

Indeed. As long as you have the patience to wait several billion years for the results to come in.

[donh]

Now would that be the changes between species we are not finding that gives you "a great deal of confidence" or is it the actual lack of finding them that gives "great deal of confidence" What we seem to find as we keep digging is that what we thought before, was wrong and here is a new theory to fill the holes of the old one. Well I say keep digging!

Incredible as it may seem, science does not take it's marching orders, or evaluate it's progress, based on the perceptions of disaffected adherents of marginal theories who can't come to grips with inductive reasoning. I have no doubt that unless paleontologists come up with a skeleton for every species that ever drew air on the planet, that creationists will be singing the song of the gaps to anyone foolish enough to hang around and listen until the final trump sounds.

As to the story changing--we've already talked about that--of course the story changes with new data--that's how science is set up to work, but the kernel of the story of evolution has remained unmoved for long enough to make it an unquestioningly acceptable story to tell in science class.

[donh]

Yes one would expect a lion and a tiger or a zebra and a horse to be able breed(altough producing sterile offspring) when forced by humans into an un-natural enviroment.

No, you wouldn't. By your lights, they are separately created species. If they are separately created species, there is no more particular reason to think that a lion and tiger might mate, and produce any sort of offspring, than to think that a turnip and turtle-dove could mate, and produce any kind of offspring.

[snowballinhell]

but the kernel of the story of evolution has remained unmoved for long enough to make it an unquestioningly acceptable story to tell in science class.

Again I ask which kernal,the one that says we will find exaples of change from a bird to a horse(natural selection) or the kernal that says we will not find it (Punc Eq) or do you have a whole new kernal published in this months "Nature" showing us the current kernal. If next month the current thinking will be different WHY should I buy into this months?

I have no doubt that unless paleontologists come up with a skeleton for every species that ever drew air on the planet, that creationists will be singing the song of the gaps to anyone foolish enough to hang around and listen until the final trump sounds.

No I would like to see the skeleton of just 1 that that is a transitional species. Like the one that rolled out of China held up as proof, the bird/reptile, but that turned out to be a hoax didn't it.
Lions and tigers same family.- Zebras and horses same family.

PLEASE POST THE DOG AND CAT OFFSPRING LINK

[donh]

You're so sly you might even win some kind of sly award.

I'm not in the least bit sly. I argue with all the subletly of bull in a china shop.

[donh]

Lions and tigers same family.- Zebras and horses same family.

So...families are really species? And species are really hybreds? Can I quote this one to the school board?

[snowballinhell]

Dogs, wolves et al - Canis
lion, tigers et al - Panthera

Should be able to breed

Canis to Panthera - NO GO

[donh]

No I would like to see the skeleton of just 1 that that is a transitional species.

Look at any fossil. They are all transitional. Some have larger gaps between their nearest relatives than others.

[snowballinhell]

lions and tigers - variations of the same form
dogs and wolves- variations of the same form
llamas and camels - variations of the same form

lions to wolves no go
dogs to camels no go
what part are you missing here?

[snowballinhell]

So was your dog and cat breeding just BS?

[jennyp]

Like This? Thanks I was wondering about that?! How do you copy and paste pictures?

Much better, thanks! (Also don't forget to put a <p> tag after the quoted part in itals.)

To insert an image, use something like this: <img src="http://www.atomicjetpacks.com/pix/hairlesschimp.jpg" width=348 height=500>. You can get the width & height for a picture by right-clicking it & choosing Properties.

One of the ways I got good at html coding was by freeping. :-)

[jennyp]

Ah, I think snowballinhell's referring to what you said in post 109:

Horses and jackasses--mate one way, you get mules, mate another way, you get jennies. West Atlantic Herring gulls--mate east to west, you get viable offpring, mate west to east, you don't. Dogs and cats--mate them, and you get occasional live offpring. Chihuahuas and Great Danes--genetically, they are one species--so you should be able to mate them, and produce viable offspring, right?

I gotta say I'd like to see that too! :-)

[donh]

what part are you missing here?

The part where you changed your tune from "species can't interbreed" to "families can't interbreed".

Is your new tune that families were independently created, but species were not? How is it, then, that most interfamily matings are void of offspring, if speciation is really just hybredization by another name?

[donh]

lions and tigers - variations of the same form
dogs and wolves- variations of the same form
llamas and camels - variations of the same form

Chihuahua's and Great Danes - variations of the same form?

[donh]

So was your dog and cat breeding just BS?

The don't breed, they just occasionally produce offspring--live, but not viable.

[snowballinhell]

The don't breed, they just occasionally produce offspring--live, but not viable.

Post your link, please

Chihuahua's and Great Danes - variations of the same form?

Oh yeah that's right Chihuahuas are actually Cricetidae(rats and mice)

How is it, then, that most interfamily matings are void of offspring, if speciation is really just hybredization by another name

And this statement holds up evolution, sounds like you are speaking from both sides of your mouth now, using the invisible divide in one post and impassable divide in another.

Is your new tune that families were independently created, but species were not?

I think form post 1 I have been speaking of families but intermixing the word species (my mistake), but all my posts have followed the same line, you can't mate a dog with a cat and come up with a cog or a dat, as you claim ( with out genetic manipulation by humans, but that would be intelligent design wouldn't it)

[Elsie]

Chihuahuas and Great Danes....

You HAVE heard that the Taco Bell dog actually DID get a Great Dane bitch pregant!

Yeah........ The vet said the St. Bernard probably put him up to it...............