Posted on 07/31/2022 7:51:25 AM PDT by SpeedyInTexas
The really interesting thing is that every week or two a new Russian booster appears on the same thread - a few are new to FR but quit a number are old timers - make one wonder if they are sleepers.
They seem to be otherwise conservative for the most part, so I have to wonder also about the level of ‘conservative’ discourse here.
But, their appearance, all on the same thread, has all the earmarks of a coordinated attack. You are right, Yuri would be proud of their efforts.
It's a mess.
There will be consequences felt in Europe as well come this winter.
We can only hope that our size and some degree of isolation from the Russians, as well as time (flash to bang) allows us to avoid the negative repercussions.
One of the reasons so many nations, even ones you would think are on our side were so hesitant with the sanctions is simply put their dependence on Russia: India, Pakistan, Egypt, Brazil, even Mexico.
Mexico, NAFTA member... They get a lot of their wheat from Russia.
If you are some el presidente somewhere and the US says “lets play the sanctions game” against someone that supplies you 20%-25% of your wheat, you think twice about that. News articles about burning Russian tanks and Ukrainian girls with blue and yellow ribbons in their hair holding a rifle might get people excited in social media, but an empty stomach will get them on the streets with pitchforks and torches.
One area where IMHO we might feel the blow back eventually is in places like Iran, Libya, Yemen, Afghanistan, North Korea or Iraq... The Russians know the language of proxy wars, and I think Ukraine opened us back up to that era. I would not be surprised if a US helicopter in Baghdad got shot down by a Verba in a year or two: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K333_Verba Give it some time. Right now the Russians are occupied and surging their resources on Ukraine.
None of this should have ever happened.
This was/is a stupid war. We took it to far and gambled to high. It was both predictable that this war would happen, and what the outcome would be when we went down the path we did in October 2021.
Biden will come away from this unscathed. After all, the MSM and big tech love him. Our oligarchs love him - he's giving them all what they want. The Republicans didn't use Ukraine in opposition politics. So this colossal blunder by the Biden administration, even bigger than Afghanistan, will basically just be swept under the rug.
👍👍👍
Yes, you are absolutely correct!
This is the biggest military conflict in Europe since WWII. It involves an erstwhile Superpower - but one still armed with nuclear weapons - and the largest, most-powerful coalition in History (NATO plus Japan plus Australia, etc.). And the war is escalating, conventionally - but still has the potential of also escalating with regards to WMDs!
So what is the point of posting about it? What is the fuss? This is like the story of the Hatfield and McCoys! Has absolutely no bearing upon us Americans or upon modern-day America! Who cares whether the Russians prevail and conquer Ukraine, only to then go on to invade further European countries (e.g., Moldavia or the Baltic States)? Why should FReepers care if NATO states possibly become involved?
You are absolutely right! Let's instead post some more funny memes about Pelosi's eyebrows!
Regards,
In two months, when his predictions fail to materialize, ganeemead will "mysteriously" cease posting.
These trolls and shills never hang around long enough to get the scourging they justly deserve!
Regards,
Victim-shaming!
"The real reason I raped and then murdered that hussy? Because her hemlines were too high! It's all her fault!"
It is ALL Putin's fault! He has clearly stated his reasons for invading Ukraine, and never once mentioned NATO expansion. Rather, it's allegedly because of the Russian language being forbidden in border regions, and also to "de-nazify" Ukraine. No mention of NATO!
Regards,
Oh, and Russia has not given any sign it would take over nations not in its traditional orbit.
You don't like the Hatfields and McCoys analogy? How about Ireland, Great Britain and Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland is Great Britain's "Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk" for exactly the same reason. English subjects live in Northern Ireland just as Russians live in Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk regions.
Hint: Great Britain occupied Northern Ireland with heavy opposition ("The Troubles", not officially a war, just like Putin's special military operation) for 30 years but they finally have a peace just like Ukraine will have if the United States and Globalist oligarchs would stop the foolishness.
Give it a rest, already! Why are you still posting about this, higgmeister? Why aren't you just sitting silently on the sidelines, and letting the "fools" you decry waste their time?
Regards,
I don't sit silently on the sidelines because those fools want my tax dollars to be sent to Ukraine to fill corrupt pockets.
My statement was made in sarcasm.
You, on the other hand, are the hypocrite who decries those who post repeated on this topic and who denigrates those who "cannot leave it alone" - in spite of the fact that you, yourself, are unable to "leave it alone."
Regards,
“In two months, when his predictions fail to materialize, ganeemead will “mysteriously” cease posting.
These trolls and shills never hang around long enough to get the scourging they justly deserve!”
Yep your probably right unfortunately.
Yeah the putin puffers obesession with homosexuality reminds of when you hear the rabid anti-gay preachers turning out to
be flaming homos themselves....
That was the cause of the war in 2014.
That was the cause of this war.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24483306 (2014)
It has been long established that Russia does not want us playing on their border.
We would not like any world power playing on our border. That is why you had a Cuban Missile Crisis, we over threw the government in Nicaragua twice, and invaded Grenada in the Cold War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
This has been expressed by the Russians and understood by the West since 1994!
“WE” have broken 3 different agreements or understandings which have been long established:
1) Ballistic Missile Treaty withdraw which is significant because we began building a missile defense system and if in Ukraine that would impact the Russian nuclear deterrent capabilities.
2) Minsk memorandum where we were bragging about arming and sending in SF folks to train Ukrainians even before the ink dried on the agreement.
3) NATO Eastward expansion where we promised not to expand into former Soviet Republics at the end of the Cold War but then did in 2004 anyhow, and tried again in the Republic of Georgia (stopped by the Russians - why you had a small war there in 2008) and again in the Ukraine in 2014 (where the Russians put an end to that idea).
With that as a backdrop, we are trying to expand into an area that shares 1,400 miles of border with Russia, has major rail lines with the same gauge and highways that connect the two. There are huge maneuver corridors where a large mechanized force could be sent through. Ukraine has ports, Westward connection with Poland and major runways that could support strategic lift and bombers. A large country with robust infrastructure, they could base a large force with ease (without the need of self sustainment) and hide things. For the Russians, this is an unacceptable situation and we simply ignored it.
We are the ones that are motivated by economics. We are the ones that are expansionist. We are the ones that flat out lied.
They are the ones motivated by a security threat. Not us.
Russian social media and even leaders of the Russian Duma have been obsessed with Alaska for years. It borders Russia so I guess you don’t want us to poke the bear by holding on to Alaska. In reality Russia NEVER feared NATO. Putin said “Russia knows no borders” and his sending of armored columns into the Republic of Georgia and Ukraine demonstrate his insanity. Ukraine was brutally invaded and it has everything to do with Russia grabbing land and natural resources and nothing to do with NATO. Sweden has long cherished its neutrality and due to Russia’s aggression, even Sweden cries for NATO protection.
I actually favor the Ukrainian position as I myself am a big believer in decentralization, freedom, nationalism, respect the different cultures and people which should express that in their laws and policies.
However, Ukraine has a neighbor and that's Russia. Russia also has their perspective, their interests.
If you ignore the Russian perspective and just think you're going to force your will onto them because they are a “has been” world power (The Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact are gone - it's questionable if they are a world power outside of their nuclear arsenal) you will end up with what we have today.
They both have their reasons, but we CHOSE to ignore the Russians and we built a missile defense system (justifiable given the threats even outside of Russia), we expanded into former Soviet Republics (Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia: 2004), we tried in the Republic of Georgia (2008) and Ukraine repeatedly (2014 and now)... The Russians told us what their “red line” (I dislike that cliche but it fits) is. It is us that is pushing them.
What is worse, is that from their perspective, this is a security issue, i.e. a threat to them: US/NATO forces on their border, their nuclear deterrence seriously jeopardized... As crazy as this sounds, the Just War concept favors their position, not us where the sole motivation in the West is economic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory
As to our motivation and the MSM coverage:
The West is also ruled by oligarchs. In fact, our oligarchs are the richest, we have the most, and they spend the most influencing the political system: https://nypost.com/2021/10/13/mark-zuckerberg-spent-419m-on-nonprofits-ahead-of-2020-election-and-got-out-the-dem-vote/ Our “economic interests” want Ukraine in the EU and NATO. The EU provides the framework and harmonization of rules, the top cover and access to a big market. NATO provides the physical security. These are securities that are desirable both for Ukraine and the EU/US.
Because everyone is on board with this, we are getting a complete one sided and filtered coverage of this war.
Some final thoughts:
This is a war that never needed to happen. It was a predictable war. The war will have a predictable outcome. It was a war because Ukraine and the Biden administration gambled big: will the cost to the Russians invading (we have been arming and training Ukraine for 7 years) be too high and we get our way?
This is a case where we lied, we are hypocrites in expecting the Russians to accept something which we wouldn't if in their shoes, the Russians do have legitimate security concerns while we are motivated by money. Arguing that they are entirely to blame for this war is simply put: ignorant BS.
When people have no argument, they almost always flee into the realm of fallacies. Why do you think this war and its coverage is all about girls with blue and yellow ribbon in their hair holding a rifle, or imaginary casualty reports only from one side?
And BTW, lables like "victim shaming" are meaningless terms that amount to no more than an ad hominem attack: racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-vaxxer... Stay away from labels when making an argument. A label is an attempt to make people feel a certain way without giving something any thought. It's a way to make people afraid of taking a controversial position. And yes, Mike Tyson probably was the actual victim and Deseree Washinton deserved to be shamed. It's a Schrott Argument.
How about Ireland, Great Britain and Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland is Great Britain's "Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk" for exactly the same reason. English subjects live in Northern Ireland just as Russians live in Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk regions.Hint: Great Britain occupied Northern Ireland with heavy opposition ("The Troubles", not officially a war, just like Putin's special military operation) for 30 years but they finally have a peace just like Ukraine will have if the United States and Globalist oligarchs would stop the foolishness.
Germany supported “the big gamble” that the cost would be too high for the Russians and they would acquiesce.
The real debate, the real news story which no one is talking about: was it a prudent decision to give the green light for NATO membership to Ukraine?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/ (This started the countdown timer for war)
Risk = probability x magnitude (cost). I do not care who you are, the probability of a war was high and the magnitude extremely high. This was an incredibly risky move by the Biden administration.
Can anyone claim that Biden didn’t know the risk or what this means to the Russians?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A—57cFU5zM
ROI = Ukraine was likely going to become a full EU member. The Russians would have probably gone along with that. Ukraine was already sovereign, they had 99% of what they wanted and even NATO was conducting exercises with them, they had SF training them, getting Western arms... Full NATO membership means a lot, but in this case they already had much of what comes with NATO membership.
This is a stupid war. A war which never should have been.
-An entirely avoidable and predictable war
-Where the Ukraine has its share of human rights abuses on the ethnic Russians in Ukraine
-Ukraine has a Nazi problem
-You can argue this is a civil war
-Or argue that Russia took land which is theirs anyhow: i.e. ethnic Russian and belonged to them pre 1922
-Where we broke the Minsk Agreement
-Where our motive is economic
-Russia can argue it’s a security issue
-Ukraine is corrupt, they are hardly a real democracy, and Mr. Z was basically installed by Western interests (how do you think a no name comedian rises to power at light speed like he did and where did the money come from?)
Is there no ammunition or controversial aspect to this war? When the US invaded Somalia, what were the German papers taking about? Untapped oil reserves. When the US invaded Iraq what did the German papers talk about? No war for oil. But now where we have an APPARENT economic nexus no one cares. How often are you reading about how big business infuence was driving the push for NATO and EU membership?
If you can get the right folks on board and when there is an economic self benefit, media suddenly sees things differently. If Germany had a political or economic benefit in being against this war, you would be reading about the bullets I provided you above 24/7.
To have kowtowed to the Russians and acceded to their illegitimate demands - specifically: to have ceded to the Russians the right to veto candidates joining NATO - would have incurred incalculable damages.
Analogy:
"Before you sleep with your wife on any given evening, I want you to first check in with me. In most cases, I won't have any objections. Only rarely will I exercise my veto right. If you don't agree to this, I will definitely fire-bomb your house, kill your wife, and rape your children."
By your logic, wouldn't it be "sensible" to accede to such a demand? I mean: If someone could make credible such a threat? Wouldn't it be best to just "give in" to such a demand?
Of course, there's no assurance that more demands wouldn't then be forthcoming, down the line!
Regards,
We were willing to risk a nuclear war over that exact issue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
We over threw the government in Nicaragua twice, because of that reason, we invaded Grenada for that reason, we will pressure folks willing to let the Chinese build any sort of dual use facility in the Pacific Rim (China has been waiting to expand their reach in the Pacific for a while).
So while we talk about Russia needing to respect the “sovereignty” of a foreign state and the Russians needing to accept this, we and Australia are pushing on the Solomon Islands to reject a Chinese deal that would have them build a government installation there.
A deal that for the Solomon Islands would mean a lot of jobs, massive investment in infrastructure, Chinese personnel bringing in money, and of course a hefty up front payment...
This war in Ukraine is the West having “lied,” breaking the Minsk and Budapest agreements, the US withdrawing from the Ballistic Missile Treaty, breaking from what was promised at the end of the Cold War: No NATO Eastward expansion into former Soviet Republics. This is a war where we are hypocrites. It's a war purely motivated by economics for us with ZERO argument for our own national security. It is a war where you have arguments on both sides, for Ukraine and Russia specific to who has a legitimate right to the land and the human rights abuses etc.
This is probably from a Just War concept, the worst conflict we have been party too since WWII.
We are using force purely in furtherance of economic interests (national security has ZERO relevance), fighting using mercenaries and guerrilla fighters we trained for years (by lying and breaking the Minsk agreement) that are in part “whack-jobs” like the Azov unit: https://www.google.com/search?q=azov+nazi&newwindow=1&sxsrf=ALiCzsbTjfDl1OyQjwfb6xv3D_lDr7B5FA:1659629329191&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN5f-Eya35AhVgFlkFHbxHAKcQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1600&bih=781&dpr=1
Read an article about the Iraq war (2004 - 2011) in the German news where they mention Blackwater. The spin will be how horrible, illegal and bad mercenaries are, how dare the US employ them? Now read an article today about how you have a US mercenary firm operating in the Ukraine (neutrality): https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise-400-us-soeldner-von-academi-kaempfen-gegen-separatisten-a-968745.html
In fact, right under the nose of the Germans, you have the Ukrainian government on their official websites (at least they did for a while - some like Austria did protest about this) recruit! Do you think that is news?
Today you have an >7,000 man strong mercenary army operating in Ukraine, and no one says anything - not about the KIA, the ones captured by the Russians... How can that be? Real simple, everyone is on board, US and EU governments, US and EU economic interests, and hence the corporate MSM in the US and Europe.
If anything, this war tells us one thing: The West no longer sees Russia as a viable military global power outside of their nuclear forces.
We would have never dared done this had we thought they can seriously bite back. However, IMHO that may have been an underestimation of the Russians especially long term.
Today we tiptoe with the Chinese for that reason. We are very careful, measured, and we stay within certain boundaries when dealing with them. We do not just sell any weapon system to Taiwan, not even our leaders travel there without de facto Chinese approval... The war in Ukraine is very telling about who we really are: what really drives our political apparatus, how far we are willing to go for money, and what our word/promises are worth.
The character of a nation or a person are not seen by how you treat those above you, rather how you treat those below you. Once we saw an opportunity, weakness, we went for it - at least Biden did. What is presented as a war about human rights, sovereignty and democracy is really Machiavellian leadership at its finest.
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