Posted on 04/24/2022 4:47:21 PM PDT by conservative98
Your approach here is baffling. To support your claim that the U.S. should intervene in a foreign dispute between two other nations, you cite an agreement related to a treaty that doesn’t obligate the U.S. to do any such thing?
***It obligates us to “respect” the borders and sovereignty. It also obligated Russia to do so. Your approach is baffling: You consider an actual invasion to steal oil & gas rights to be “respecting” a sovereign country’s borders?
Kevmo:Get Nuclear Nonproliferation right, or the world is well and truly Fracked.
AC:Great. What the hell does this have to do with Ukraine and Russia today?
***Russia never woulda invaded if the Ukes had kept their nukes.
Saddam was long our puppet as has been Putin. Really I at least have no idea how much this is staged for larger purposes as well, but we’ve been far, far worse re: invasions (and killings) for energy (and pretty much anything else) since the fall of the USSR.
I don’t know at this point whether you are a propagandizer—or just fully propagandized.
Look in the mirror, propaganda dude. You’re bought in hook, line, and sinker.
It was the right thing to do, kick Saddam back to Iraq. It is the right thing to do, kick Pootypoot back to Russia. Trump thinks so — do you accuse him of being a propagandizer?
Biden already spilled the beans re: Putin getting his reasonable geography for his efforts (which isn’t where most Ukraine oil is based btw).
“reasonable geography” sounds exactly like Hitler & Sudetenland [also Rheinland]
Biden’s the guy who said it (the paraphrasing is mine).
Then go ahead and defend Biden, since he’s on pootypoot’s side on that.
When you're operating based on principles, a priori thinking is typical. It's the same approach I took to COVID lockdowns, masks, useless "vaccines," etc. It just means that everything is a bad idea until I'm convinced it's a good idea. It's served me well.
But did you think we should get involved when we denuked the Ukes?
It didn't matter to me one way or another, as I remember it at the time. By 1994 I had already grown skeptical that the U.S. government was worthy of blanket approval for any steps it took in foreign affairs.
... it was the right thing to do at the time and it’s the right thing to do now, honor that agreement in the face of obvious tyrant bullying and invasion to take another country’s natural resources, and just plain kill lots of civilians.
The agreement was that Ukraine would not have nuclear arms, and as signatories of the NPT the U.S. and Russia both agreed that we wouldn't give Ukraine any nuclear arms or help Ukraine develop them. Who is failing to honor that agreement right now?
Saddam was long our puppet as has been Putin.
***Was he acting as our puppet when he invaded Kuwait? Uhh: NO. In order to buy into your line of reasoning, we have to buy into your conspiracy theories. I take a hard pass on that.
When you’re operating based on principles, a priori thinking is typical. It’s the same approach I took to COVID lockdowns, masks, useless “vaccines,” etc. It just means that everything is a bad idea until I’m convinced it’s a good idea. It’s served me well.
***It is a classic fallacy. You should try not to uphold classic fallacies as if they are sound reasoning.
Only took three posts!
Thank you. We have no commitment past what Biden said he’d do in exchange for cash his crime family extorted or accepted bribes for.
Kevmo:But did you think we should get involved when we denuked the Ukes?
AC:It didn’t matter to me one way or another, as I remember it at the time. By 1994 I had already grown skeptical that the U.S. government was worthy of blanket approval for any steps it took in foreign affairs.
***Then if that was your approach towards tens of millions of souls under threat of nuclear annihilation, you should just take the same approach towards it now and just nonchalantly ignore this thing going on as a result of the non proliferation treaty.
Kevmo:... it was the right thing to do at the time and it’s the right thing to do now, honor that agreement in the face of obvious tyrant bullying and invasion to take another country’s natural resources, and just plain kill lots of civilians.
AC:The agreement was that Ukraine would not have nuclear arms, and as signatories of the NPT the U.S. and Russia both agreed that we wouldn’t give Ukraine any nuclear arms or help Ukraine develop them.
***Ukraine had hundreds of them. The Budapest thing was the arrangement for getting RID of them.
Who is failing to honor that agreement right now?
***Russia, by invading. The USA by not ‘respecting’ the sovereignty and borders of Ukraine. The rest of the UN by going silent about it.
https://everipedia.org/wiki/lang_en/ukraine
I see no US involvement in the area that is Ukraine until the Orange Revolution that Western countries including the US decided to meddle in.
Activists of the Orange Revolution were funded and trained in tactics of political organisation and nonviolent resistance by Western pollsters and professional consultants who were partly funded by Western government and non-government agencies but received most of their funding from domestic sources. [2] [150] According to The Guardian, the foreign donors included the U.S. State Department and USAID along with the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, the International Republican Institute, the NGO Freedom House and George Soros’s Open Society Institute. [151] The National Endowment for Democracy has supported democracy-building efforts in Ukraine since 1988. [152] Writings on nonviolent struggle by Gene Sharp contributed in forming the strategic basis of the student campaigns. [153]
Most of the orgs listed above are US based.
And it’s been a mess ever since but hey, it did become a nice slush fund for pols.
I don’t see how meddling in the affairs of other countries has helped these United States one bit. We used to meddle in Ctrl/South America. For what reasons? We meddled in the Middle East. How’d that work out for us? We “helped” Ukraine when they were gaining their independence in the 90s. We helped with their “elections”(color revolutions) Why? So it could become a slush fund for pols? Korea? Vietnam?
So which of these independent, sovereign United States full of independent, sovereign people was helped by any of the above? We get involved in these things to help pols and big business but the result is a bunch of young people getting killed in some other country that did not attack any of these independent, sovereign United States.
You’re just too stupid to know what a treaty is and are calling the “Budapest Agreement” a treaty. It never was a treaty. It was never ratified by our Senate as required of any treaty.
Maybe you should read the US Constitution before arguing this “memorandum” is a treaty.
While you’re at it, read the history of the “Budapest Agreement” and how US State Department lawyers backtracked on any guarantees of military involvement if Ukraine was ever attacked.
So, your argument that there exists a treaty by which we Americans must defend Ukraine militarily is based on your ignorance and misunderstanding of the “Budapest Agreement”, which was never a treaty and was never a guarantee of US military involvement.
You’re just too stupid to know what a treaty is and are calling the “Budapest Agreement” a treaty.
***You’re the stupid one here. Even the agreement itself is called an accession to a TREATY. It is an accession to a fully senate-ratified United Nations Nuclear NonProliferation TREATY.
It never was a treaty.
***accession to a fully senate-ratified United Nations Nuclear NonProliferation TREATY.
It was never ratified by our Senate as required of any treaty.
***The UN NNPT was RATIFIED by our senate.
Another neocon. I’d say we already gave them 3 billion and the rest of NATO gave them crumbs, no we are living up to our commitment but NATO is not.
We’ve done enough, time for others to step up, we need to extricate ourselves.
You’re confusing the “Budapest Agreement” with the non-nuclear proliferation treaty which did not include protecting signatory nations.
I don’t know what makes you so stupid, but it really works.
Maybe you should read the US Constitution before arguing this “memorandum” is a treaty.
***It is an accession to a fully ratified treaty. Accession protocols are ratified by the US senate.
While you’re at it, read the history of the “Budapest Agreement” and how US State Department lawyers backtracked on any guarantees of military involvement if Ukraine was ever attacked.
***While YOU are at it, count how many souls were endangered by the presence of hundreds of nuclear weapons that we took off the table in that agreement. We did the right thing. We should do the right thing by that agreement and uphold the borders and sovereignty of the country that honored that agreement & gave up their nukes. Maybe you should backtrack and see whether or not an invasion by one of the signatories is a violation of that agreement. I doubt you will.
So, your argument that there exists a treaty
***The senate ratified UN NNPT of which this Budapest thing is an accession to that fully ratified treaty, following fully ratified accession protocols.
by which we Americans must defend Ukraine militarily
***You pantywaist appeasing isolationist p^$$ies always look to betray those who do the right thing, always look for the “obligation” part of these kinds of things instead of looking at doing the right thing. You’re sickening.
is based on your ignorance and misunderstanding
***You have severe ignorance of the UN NNPT and that it was fully ratified by the senate, and that the accession protocols were fully ratified and properly followed.
of the “Budapest Agreement”, which was never a treaty
***It is an accession to the fully ratified UN NNP TREATY.
and was never a guarantee of US military involvement.
***You Pansie aPPeasing Pantywaist P^$$ies always look for that guarantee. You’re fine with taking nukes off the table but when it comes time to belly up to the bar you suddenly get real good at betraying those who do the right thing. The Russians OBVIOUSLY violated that agreement by invading, so there’s nothing stopping us from kicking their asses all the way back to Russia. Even Trump says it’s the right thing to do.
You’re confusing the “Budapest Agreement” with the non-nuclear proliferation treaty
***It says right in the UN documentation that it is an accession to that ratified treaty.
Registration Number 52241
Title Memorandum on security assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the TREATY on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
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