Yeh, yeh here we go again knife vs gun fight debate. Posted on 10/27/2017 11:06:45 AM PDT by w1n1
Yeh, yeh here we go again knife vs gun fight debate.
For those that don't know the term "21 foot rule". It is well known (also called Tueller Drill) within the law enforcement and personal defense circle. This defensive drill was patterned after a Salt Lake City Police Sergeant Dennis Tueller experimentation.
The Tueller drill is all about “reactionary gap” through training. Other trainers have come up with the distances associated it to the Tueller drill. This experimentation, determined that the average healthy adult male can cover a distance of seven yards (21 feet) in about 1.5 seconds.
The significance of the time factor is based on the reasonable standard that a person who’s trained in proper pistolcraft (gun fighting) should be able to draw a handgun and place two centered hits on a life-size silhouette at seven yards in about 1.5 seconds.
Its important to point out that both the distance of 21 feet and the time factor as addressed in Tueller’s drill, were both approximations based on training experience is all.
Training Scar
According to Force Science Research Center the old way of training was to stop the scenario when the defender gets off the first shot at the perpetrator. This type of training and mentality of “bang you’re dead” leads to a false sense of safety, this is a “training scar“. A training scar is a negative trait that’s come as a result of bad training practices.
Another training scar that is common in shooting is how we are all conditioned to stand on the firing line and shoot at a static target. For this reason, most Law Enforcement Officers and civilian gun owners step in concrete the minute their gun leaves the holster. Safety was the primary motive to reinforce training with firearm. If there were any movement implemented into the training. It was limited to movements to perpendicular or lateral movements in relations to the target.
Alternative Solutions
Force Science Research Center provides an alternative way is to turn the “Tueller concept” into an actual drill as a force on force exercise. Read the rest and see the 21 foot rule video here.
Old ladies can do anything they want.
i identify as an old lady... so does that count?
That’s what my old lady always told me.
>>Another training scar that is common in shooting is how we are all conditioned to stand on the firing line and shoot at a static target. For this reason, most Law Enforcement Officers and civilian gun owners step in concrete the minute their gun leaves the holster. Safety was the primary motive to reinforce training with firearm. If there were any movement implemented into the training. It was limited to movements to perpendicular or lateral movements in relations to the target.
If a person can’t get out in the woods or someplace similar where they can freely move and shoot at least once a year, they do get glued in place when the gun comes out. For a real gunfight, Airsoft is probably better training than real firearms, if you use a low-end Airsoft gun without all the hop-ups and mods. The necessity of range safety rules makes effective gunfight training almost impossible with firearms.
“We have to get rid of the “Bang! You’re dead” mentality.”
Very true. Unless you hit the nervous system, the person you shoot can - not will, but can - keep fighting for another 10-30 seconds. That is true even if you shoot them in the heart.
Many lesser fatal wounds can take minutes to kill, during which the attacker can still fight. Many don’t...but those who do can fire a lot of bullets or stab a lot of times in 30 seconds.
I carry a 5-shot J-frame and can’t hit squat while moving, so my plan is shoot once, move. Repeat as needed.
Well Yeah! Don’t mess with Granny!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfeAsOiaOkk
Thanks w1n1. I sent this to our Chief of Police.
Even if I was carrying, I'd be running like hell in the other direction to keep that 21 feet intact whilst I seek cover and/or get my weapon ready to deploy. I ain't John Wayne.
Yes, we should get rid of the dinky 21-foot rule.
Cops should be able to blast away at a guy a block away who is reaching for his cell phone, and the cop should be able to claim he was “in fear for his life.”
It woulda been funnier if she forgot to lock her wheelchair and started rolling backward as she shot.
Go Go Granny mobile division!!
I think we always need to be AWARE of what 21 feet represents. Once the opposing force has entered our 21 feet radius, we need to start the kill-don't kill mental calculations. If they enter the the 21 foot radius at a dead sprint, we are at a disadvantage because they have made their kill-don't kill mental calculations and we are left with less than 2 seconds to make our calculations, overcome our instincts and our fears, draw our weapon, point it, and squeeze the trigger.
I had a shoot-no shoot encounter inside 21 feet earlier this year. I had time to calculate so I pulled the gun out of its holster and, without pointing it at anyone, made the opposing force aware of their disadvantage. They didn't waste a lot of time increasing their distance from me. They increased their distance by a couple of miles in fact.
Recognizing that a threat was less than 21 feet and recognizing the disadvantage that that created for me allowed me to make several mental calculations and to arrive at a solution that was appropriate for the situation and which didn't get anyone killed or sent to prison (although I did have to explain myself to a judge due to the nature of this incident but not because of the gun specifically).
Situational awareness was my ally. This is not the first time that situation awareness has saved my ass. We need to be AWARE of the 21 foot rule and the SITUATION it creates for us.
I always shake my head when I see someone in a movie get stabbed. They drop dead instantly no matter where they get stabbed.
Guilty as charged, m'Lud. Found that out taking a CQB class. It's tough to unlearn a half century of target shooting habits. Practice, practice... My problem was that sure, I can draw and get a shot off in less than 1.5 seconds if I'm standing still but it's slower and more difficult when I'm moving, which you'd better be to get off the threat axis in a Tueller scenario. And there aren't a lot of ranges that will allow you to practice that sort of thing on your own. Also, the attacker tends to keep coming after he's shot. Oops. Colonel Fairbairn, who got plenty of practice as a cop in Shanghai in the prewar days, recommended shooting them in the belly. This is not, so far as I know, current doctrine but he swore by it.
Probably responsible for more needless ‘civilian’ deaths than damned idea in the last 50 years.
If a cop shoots they’d better have clear body cam footage that shows they were in genuine, lethal danger or riots WILL ensue, careers will and should end and lawsuits will bankrupt us taxpayers.
Get the hell rid of this rule and fire anyone who practices it.
Correct.
It’s pretty hard to find any case of a cop shooting a civilian where somebody here won’t give them the ‘benefit of the doubt’, or ‘wait until all the facts are in’, or blather ‘why don’t you become a cop then’ or some such jackboot licking pontification.
I’m all for dispatching Bad Guys, with no remorse. But any use of lethal force had better be accompanied by bodycam footage that would convince a skeptical juror. Period. No exceptions.
I personally would have my weapon unholstered and in a shooting grip long before the danger got within 21 feet. Enter the kill circle and you’re already looking down a .45-caliber smokestack.
Your move, tough guy.
Running while shooting one handed ensures that you miss. Better to get those aimed hits in.
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