Posted on 08/12/2017 9:27:12 PM PDT by TBP
Some thoughts about the horrible events in Charlottesville:
First of all, the ideology of the white nationalists who showed up to protest is vile and unacceptable. The same can be said of many of those who showed up to counter-protest. Everyone has a right to protest, and to counter-protest. I’ve done it myself. They have every right to demonstrate peacefully, to carry signs, to shout slogans, no matter how vile they may be. They have every right to shout at each other back and forth, no matter how fruitless that may be. This is America. You get to do that.
What you do not get to do is commit acts of violence. And let’s be honest, there was violence among the white supremacists and violence among those who came to protest against them. It’s all wrong, and it all needs to be condemned. I agree with Sen. Ted Cruz that it should be investigated as domestic terrorism. All of it.
I thought President Trump sounded a good tone. He condemned the violence from all sides and called for national unity and love. Exactly what I expect from my president at times like this. I think the criticism of him for not singling out one side or the other is unwarranted and unfair. But his political opponents couldn’t help but attack it.
Now the tough but necessary points:
If you heard about this and your first thought, or your second, or your third, was how to gain political advantage from this, you’re part of the problem.
If you are upset by these events but you were justifying the riots around the Inauguration, or in Baltimore, or in Ferguson, you’re part of the problem.
If you’re offended by the white supremacist ideology but not by chants like “Pigs in a blanket. Fry ‘em like bacon” or “What do we want? Dead cops! When do we want it? Now!”, you’re part of the problem.
If you consider one of these mobs fascist thugs, but not the other, you’re part of the problem.
If you condemn one side of this or the other, but leave the other side(s) unmentioned, you’re implicitly justifying and excusing the violence of the side you won’t mention. That makes you part of the problem.
I’m sorry if that offends you, but it’s the way it is.
What we need most right now is prayer and unity. We need to pray for the victims of the violence, their friends and families, for law enforcement, for the public officials, for the people who perpetrated this horrible violence, for our leaders, for our country, for each other. And we need to stop politicizing events like this.
And we need to unite in rejection of these extremist ideologies – all of them – and in support of civilized, ordered liberty for all. We need to address each other more civilly. We need to stop feeding the hatred of extremists on all sides who promote this kind of hatred and horror. Remember, we’re all Americans. We’re all human beings. We’re all the heart and hands of God. It’s time to start acting that way.
Let us recognize the divine in each other and let us work together, hand in hand, even though we vigorously disagree, to solve this in peace and love. Together.
Now, let’s get to it.
If it is, it's just another thing that's going to backfire on them. Because the overwhelming majority of Whites in America aren't "white nationalists", ann they're not going to appreciate being smeared with that false label...
“the universal principle of Liberty and Justice for all for which America is supposed to exist”
Sounds like you and the alt right have some common ground.
Their mistake is that they seem to think it’s more about race than politics.
Even though they correctly assert that whites are legally discriminated against in the US today, my belief is that that is all part of a “progressive” plan tearing down a free market capitalist system and replacing it with a communist one.
https://altright.com/tag/blood-and-soil/
If I can take reading it, so can you.
If you've seen no evidence of that, then I have to believe you're being too selective. I've certainly seen such evidence. Today. On this very thread. For instance, the notion that Whites "creating and maintaining civilization", as if no other race is capable or contributed to "civilization". That's extremely narrow and patently false—and supremacist—thinking.
Additionally, you said:
Keep in mind the only institutionalized bigotry in the US is against whites and males.
Now that is just patently false. Can you at least acknowledge that there was institutionalized bigotry in the US against Blacks, and females?
If so, it's ludicrous to claim that it has all swung completely over to be only against whites and males. There's plenty of bigotry to go around in America—including institutionalized bigotry.
Obviously the anti-White bigotry you've cited is in vogue institutionally nowadays, but to presume that none of the other exists—after a long history of official existence—is simply not realistic. Specific examples can be located to suit any race or sex.
For example, in my living memory—and I'm less than 55—my own uncle was arrested driving through Georgia simply because he had a black woman in the front seat of his car. His platonic friend—the black woman—was arrested too. That's institutional racism...
Not anymore. The Left has turned it into a "Tossed Salad." In fact, to them "melting pot" is now considered to be racist.
SPLC is a disreputable far left organization; they are fellow travelers with Soros, Hillary, BLM, and every whacked out leftist front group. Linking to their website certainly does not reflect well on yourself. It truly calls your bona fides into question.
I agree, and it's about to blow. People are catching on to the games that the media and the left play together.
Just because you saw the notion on this thread doesn't mean it's part of the alt right platform. Do you have a link to an article or the alt right website where they said that and not someone else?
"institutionalized"
Yes, I know there was, but you seem to believe it doesn't exist today against whites or males. To end discrimination, you end discrimination, you don't replace it with another.
The institutionalized discrimination against whites and males is softer than the prior (e.g. all have the right to vote now) but it is discrimination nonetheless, like you can see here for the case of men:
https://www.sba.gov/business-guide/grow/women-owned-businesses-programs
So here we have a government (institutionalized) favoritism of females, which you can't have without discriminating against men. But because there was institutionalized discrimination against women in the past we are all supposed to feel guilty about it and therefore, instead of ending discrimination, we reverse it, albeit softly.
The institutionalized aspect is much more important than the "street level" discrimination you want to throw into this. It's my belief that just like there will always be murderers, rapists, and robbers, there will always be racists.
So because there's "a racist out there somewhere" we need to institutionalize reverse discrimination? I don't agree.
If you are waiting for the day that bad people just vanish off the globe to end institutionalized racism, it'll never happen and I for one, am not going to chastise the alt right for not wanting to wait that long.
So I am not making any claims that there is no bigotry. I can't even claim that there isn't any in the alt right.
But my main point has been NEITHER CAN YOU! You keep echoing that sentiment w/o real backup.
E.g. You point to someone a blogger on FR posted to "prove" the alt right hates the non white when all they have actually done in that regard is promote "white interests" because whites are discriminated against institutionally (based on their statements).
I'm looking for something stronger than "it fits into the gestalt of..." or "it reminds me of..." as better evidence of hatred. I think many folks are looking at this through politically correct glasses.
I post the SPLC link only to give a contrasting view of the alt right that is NOT from another blogger or “journalist”.
The SPLC view of the alt right is going to be the government view of it so it’s important to know.
The gov uses SPLC for civilian intelligence and the SPLC is nicely funded by them.
In the same vein, I would not hesitate to provide a link to Karl Marx’s manifesto, even though I am an avid capitalist and anti-communist.
Funny how they aren’t referring to the driver as a “Lone Wolf”.
“Can we agree on those as a starting point?
Absolutely. But I’m not going to agree that alt right is anything more than a response to bigotry towards whites until I have better info.
Everyone seems to be making them out to be like the KKK, they are not as far as I can see.
So far I have no problem with them any more than I would for any other group standing up for themselves, even if their group is based on race.
If La Raza were fighting for equal rights, I would have no problem with them. The fact that they want greater than equal rights (the “right” to be exempt from immigration law) is what bothers me with them.
Funny when a “lone wolf” Muslim commits an act of terrorism, the first thing said is, “This is not Islam, we must not condemn all Muslims.”
Then this happens and it’s, “All whites are racist!”
Yeah, so much for that “honest discussion about race”.
Technically, though, the alt right could be called racist, though not supremacist. They seem to limit it to seeing race as important as culture and that is should not be shamed away.
I can sorta see where they’re coming from with that since it seems to be more about pride of heritage, but if and when they start harping that one is “better” than another so the “others” must be treated unequal under the law, they’ve entered nazi territory.
Hairspray and a Bic lighter.
“””How about this: f-ck all bigotry—institutional or otherwise.
And how about this: f-ck all racism—institutional or otherwise.
Can we agree on those as a starting point?”””
Sure. You go and convince the people on the left. Let us know how it goes.
“...it’s a fact that Spencer is full of white nationalist sh*t.”
So YOU say. I’ve never heard of Richard Spencer, and I’ve never heard a coherent definition of “white nationalist” either.
But where are facts that ALL or even most, or even many of the original protestors hold “vile and despicable” opinions.
"Our dream is a new society, an ethno-state that would be a gathering point for all Europeans. It would be a new society based on very different ideals than, say, the Declaration of Independence." — Vice, October 2013
There's more, if you search around for it.
The good thing in all of this is that Trump's base of support has absolutely nothing to do with "white nationalism", "white supremacy", or any other phony label the Propaganda Media is attempting to slap on decent everyday working Americans.
That the Enemy of the People will try to distort the truth and exploit incidents like these is as predictable as the sun rising. But their power has been broken. They're implementing a scorched earth policy, and lashing out as they experience their death throes—but their power is broken.
The Media and Swamp can certainly cause turmoil with their inflammatory hatred and "racist"; but in point of fact, they've already lost: they stand naked and exposed for the seditious agents that they are, and there is no going back for the People.
If this civil war comes, it's gonna be lopsided, and it won't be won by those who are attempting to undo a perfectly legitimate election.
Globalist subversives may succeed elsewhere, but they'll never succeed in America. They've overplayed their hand severely. Their mask has not just slipped: it has completely come off, and the ugly monster beneath has been revealed to anyone who is willing to see.
This President—and the movement whose mantle he assumed—has saved the Republic. The only question is how much blood and treasure it will end up costing. I predict plenty. But the Enemy will never succeed in demonizing half the electorate with its hateful lies.
As I said: they've already lost. They just don't know it yet. The 2018 elections will show them what's really up, though—and what's really up will not be the fortunes of the Democrat party—the party of Racism, Perjury, Obstruction of Justice, and Sedition.
But I digress...
“Racist isn’t a descriptive word. It’s a pejorative word. It is the equivalent of saying, ‘I don’t like you.’ ‘Racist’ is just a slur word. I think race is real, and I think race is important. And those two principles do not mean I want to harm someone or hate someone. But the notion that these people can be equal is not a scientific way of looking at it.” — quoted in the Flathead Beacon, November 2014That's pretty blatant supremacism. Oh, it's subtle, but it's also unmistakable. Spencer rejects as unscientific the notion that another race "can be equal". That kind of thinking goes well beyond "white nationalism".
I believe there was once someone else who attempted to used science to justify such rigid beliefs. Who was that again?
As I mentioned, Richard Spencer—someone who was asked to speak at "Unite the Right" and promoted in their posters—is a veritable fount of problematic ideas...
Thanks for finding that, and I certainly understand your concern and would say the alt right deserves scrutiny when it comes to racial statements,even if only because it’s a taboo subject.
So while I can agree it’s a problematic statement consider this alternate subject for one paragraph - are men and women equal? And what exactly do I mean by “equal” anyway? If I point out there are differences between men and women, so there is no way they can be “equal”, does it mean that I want women to have fewer rights or different treatment under the law? Or am I just being literal in that, by definition, “different” means “not equal”?
So I still don’t agree they are supremacists for saying there are differences between races. When you get down to it, “race” is actually pretty hard to define. You can always find exceptions in physical characteristics, so it’s a pretty lame position for them to take.
When a doctor points out that blacks have a higher chance of having sickle cell anemia, we presume their intended use of that information is medical. For the alt right, I’m seeing the presumption of pointing out race is that the intended use is supremacy.
But what I have seen so far is that their intent is only to counter political correctness, reverse institutionalized discrimination, and replace “white guilt” with pride. Quite frankly, I don’t see anything wrong with that.
If someone puts a bumper sticker on their car that says “Proud to be Irish” no one notices, but “Proud to be White”? They are likely to be killed. I think they want to change that attitude.
So as long as they are not using their beliefs to justify bad behavior against others, I am willing to take them at their word that the difference they see between races is nothing more than they say it is and comparable to the differences we may see between sexes
Their focus on race is not something I agree with myself, but I really can’t put them in that nazi or KKK camp for something that merely sounds bad or “problematic” or that makes me a bit uncomfortable.
So, while I can agree they are right on the line, they haven’t seemed to cross it. Nevertheless, if they do start talking about unequal treatment under the law, I am with you 100% that they should be slammed as the kkk and nazis are.
I really appreciate you getting back to me on this! It’s the best “non-echo chamber” input I’ve gotten about these guys.
p.s. There’s a lawsuit brewing over this that’ll be interesting to watch. I saw a twitter post earlier that included a copy of a court filed affidavit from the local chief of police that listed all the groups they thought were coming in addition to the alt right.
There were indeed kkk type folks that were planning on showing up but it was an alt right event.
So if you want a better idea of my personal assessment of the alt right, I don’t find it surprising that the kkk would go to an alt right event but would find it surprising if the alt right went to kkk events. Maybe they do, I don’t know.
David Duke probably voted in the last election and I would venture a guess he picked Trump over Hillary. I don’t think that’s because Trump’s a bigoted nazi type, but that Trump has more things someone like Duke would like than Hillary would. Some folks would take that vote and beat Trump over the head with it.
I’m not that type.
An Obama-supporting Occupy person.
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