You focus on the motives of the South haters; but I have a hard time getting past their abysmal demonstration of a total lack of any rational perspective. That they are filled with hate, and seek to market hate against the very roots of our civilization is obvious. But in their demonstration of oblivion to the actual context of what they hiss over, they never rise past a level of half baked opinions, served by intellectually underdone enthusiasts.
Let me point out some obvious errors, which should be clear to any student of history, but which the current crop of South haters ignore:
1. Of all the places in the world, where people were being held in involuntary servitude in 1860, such as Brazil, the Islamic nations, much of tropical Africa, Imperial Russia--although there about to be freed--can anyone name any place where the "bondage" was more humanely administered than in much of the Old South?
How about in non-bondage States, here or in Europe, were there many low paying, industrial jobs, where the laboring men & women were as humanely treated by their employers, as the bonds men & women in the Old South?
2. Why do not those who feign inveterate horror at the idea of anyone held in bondage ever consider how much of any worker's time, in an alternative "free" system, is really his or her own; and how much absolutely dictated by the complex context of circumstances linked to the needs of survival, in any system? And how much actual free time was allowed to the "slaves" of compassionate Southern Christian Plantation owners?
Just why were ex-slaves behaving in the manner Booker T. Washington describes, if their lives had been the hellish experience that the rabid Abolitionists claimed? (Booker T. Washington Address)
3. One encounters a "pecking order" in all social species on the planet. It is a given that personal liberty, where everyone is put on their mettle to be responsible; that such brings out the best in a society. Yet, both in the "loyal & faithful servant" in the Bible, and in such honored bondsmen in the classic age in Europe as Aesop, many slaves have been honored through the ages. Who, in Biblical times, or in Medieval times, with kindly intent, ever felt the need to go into an endless hissing fit over the fact that some people were for a time in a position to direct the lives of other people, unless there were other factors involved.
4. A great many Southerners wanted to see the slaves emancipated--Jefferson for one. But they recognized that there had to be careful preparation for the change in status. The fact is that that preparation was never made; and the reasoning behind the recognition of the need for that preparation has surely been vindicated by the ongoing racial conflicts, 152 years after emancipation.
Now, while we are all victims of the gross mishandling of that emancipation, the greatest victims have been the ex-slaves. Why? Because the South haters in the 1865 era, promised the new freemen what they could not deliver; and should never have promised. But those promises ushered in an age of dependency, since refurbished by new generations of demagogues, intent on preserving that dependency.
The reality is that no two of us have exactly the same combination of talents & weaknesses, motivations & inhibitions, etc.. And the egalitarian absurdity of the Jacobins & Marxists, down through the generations, leads to utterly & demonstrably bad results for the pretended beneficiaries--those being "equalized" by Government. One size does not fit all. One format does not work for every child.
I would suggest that instead of treating the Confederate leaders as somehow abhorrent, we look at the skills developed on those great plantations, under the tutelage of Christian employers, and study how contemporary schools can achieve a similar result, before another generation of Black youth are misled to their own destruction by the Pied Pipers of the Left.
yes that's the rub isn't it....
Check out post #97 - a FReeper defending the Peculiar Institution.
*SMH*
Ohioans: ** “You focus on the motives of the South haters; but I have a hard time getting past their abysmal demonstration of a total lack of any rational perspective. “ **
Just so we’re clear on this: nobody but nobody posting on Free Republic hates “the South”.
Most of us have family & friends there, have lived there ourselves and often travel in the South.
Even in the North here you see Confederate flags on homes & pickups, we love our rebels.
Further, the “lack of rational perspective” we see comes 100% from our Lost Cause mythologizers.
In thread after thread over many years Lost Causers post their myths & venom against “Northerners” who you then equate to anybody that responds to defend simple facts & reason.
Ohioan: ** “1. In all the places in the world, where people were being held in involuntary servitude in 1860... —can anyone name any place where the “bondage” was more humanely administered than in much of the Old South? “ **
No, but neither can anyone name another country where slaveholders fought so fiercely to protect their “property rights”.
Ohioan: ** “How about in non-bondage States, here or in Europe, were there many low paying, industrial jobs, where the laboring men & women were as humanely treated by their employers, as the bonds men & women in the Old South? “ **
One reason Southern slaves were often treated like family is because many literally were family — half brothers & sisters, cousins, nephews & nieces, etc.
Especially those in Marse’s Big House were well treated, fed & dressed.
Some were even taught to read, the Bible especially.
That did not however prevent them from being “sold down the river” when necessity or opportunity dictated, breaking up families regardless of how close they may have felt.
Field hands on big plantations were generally not treated so well.
They were worked harder and given fewer privileges than house servants.
Often they were not even allowed to grow their own food.
And so we’re clear on this, by standards of their own times US factory workers were well paid and housed.
That’s precisely why so many were willing to leave their farms & villages for a big city factory.
Yes, today we see their plight as miserable, especially during economic slumps.
Then they had very few outside of family & church willing or able to help them.
But at least they were never arbitrary “sold down the river” breaking up families which didn’t want to be broken.
Ohioan: ** “2. Why do not those who feign inveterate horror at the idea of anyone held in bondage ever consider how much of any worker’s time, in an alternative “free” system, is really his or her own; and how much absolutely dictated by the complex context of circumstances linked to the needs of survival, in any system?
And how much actual free time was allowed to the “slaves” of compassionate Southern Christian Plantation owners? “ **
First, let’s be clear, African slaves were never “slaves”, such quotation marks are absurd.
What is certainly appropriate is to put the word slave “owner” in quotes, since by our definition nobody ever “owns” another person.
Second, every Northern factory worker, regardless of how poorly paid or badly treated possessed the one essential freedom no African slave ever had: the freedom to pick up, leave and find a better life elsewhere.
And, indeed, most in America did exactly that, until they found just the circumstances that best suited them, whether their own farm out west, or as a skilled tradesman in town.
Ohioan: ** “ Just why were ex-slaves behaving in the manner Booker T. Washington describes, if their lives had been the hellish experience that the rabid Abolitionists claimed? (Booker T. Washington Address) “ **
No freed African slave, to my knowledge, ever voluntarily returned to slavery.
Ohioan: ** “3. ...Who, in Biblical times, or in Medieval times, with kindly intent, ever felt the need to go into an endless hissing fit over the fact that some people were for a time in a position to direct the lives of other people, unless there were other factors involved. “ **
Ah, but the key fact slavery apologists have to ignore is that throughout history there have been various categories & classes of slaves, each treated differently.
For example, most early immigrants to America arrived as young indentured servants, a category of slave, except that, first & foremost they had volunteered and second, the time was limited (i.e., seven years) after which they were free to do as they pleased.
Basically they were enslaved to pay off debts.
By stark contrast, African slaves were enslaved for life, and the lives of their descendants just as with livestock, not for debts, but because of their race.
Indeed some Southern states passed laws re-enslaving freed blacks, for no reason except their race.
So that was a far more unjust form of slavery than any recognized or “tolerated” in the Bible.
Ohioan: ** “4. A great many Southerners wanted to see the slaves emancipated—Jefferson for one.
But they recognized that there had to be careful preparation for the change in status.
The fact is that that preparation was never made... “ **
And therein lie the real facts of this matter.
Jefferson’s proposal for the Federal government to purchase freedom and return ex-slaves to Africa or elsewhere, those ideas and all similar ones went nowhere because slaveholders would have none of it.
Even in 1776, when many Southerners recognized slavery as wicked, others more strongly believed slavery was not only necessary, it was also in their minds moral.
That’s why such Jeffersonian abolition ideas went nowhere.
But another point needs to be added here: regarding “preparation for freedom” slaveholders had a big problem.
Since the Bible forbids enslaving God’s people, once slaves had learned to read and accept Christianity, they could no longer be kept as permanent slaves.
The Bible says they must be freed, and slaveholders knew it, which is why they wanted their slaves kept as ignorant as possible.
Ohioan: ** “...South haters in the 1865 era, promised the new freemen what they could not deliver; and should never have promised.
But those promises ushered in an age of dependency, since refurbished by new generations of demagogues, intent on preserving that dependency. “ **
Actually, **Republicans** after 1865 did deliver what they promised: freedom for all slaves, enfranchisement and justice.
And for years afterwards Southern Republicans elected blacks to political offices and other civic responsibilities.
But it didn’t last because in time **Democrats** were again allowed to vote in the South and THEY created all the conditions you Ohioan here decry.
Ohioan: ** “I would suggest that instead of treating the Confederate leaders as somehow abhorrent, we look at the skills developed on those great plantations, under the tutelage of Christian employers, and study how contemporary schools can achieve a similar result, before another generation of Black youth are misled to their own destruction by the Pied Pipers of the Left. “ **
Ohioan, you began by making a legitimate contrast between the treatment of Southern US slaves versus those in other countries, fine.
But now you suggest that treatment was in any way admirable by TODAY’S standards, and that is simply absurd.
By our standards most slaves were treated horribly, very few taught to read & write, or learn Christianity and for good reason from slaveholders’ perspectives.
Final words: I do no remember seeing a full throated defense of Southern slavery posted on FR before, and was a bit taken aback by it.
But if anyone seriously wishes, we can certainly discuss it at more length.