Posted on 02/19/2014 2:34:29 PM PST by GraceG
So it seems to me that the people of the Ukraine are being used by either pro-russian factions or pro-Europeon Union factions. But no one is talking about the one faction that doesn't want part in either arena.
Soros and our own state department has dumped a whole bunch of money into NGO (non Government Organisations) directly affecting the foriegn policy of another soverign nation.
No doubt Putin has his fingers in the Ukraine pie, but we aren't noticing it as much becasue the Russian media has been under his thumb after a series of "unfourtunate accidents and suicides". And won't hear much until all the hollow fanfare of Sochi is a distant memory.
So who is looking out for the Ukrainians who want their own country? From all the media reports I have read so far, I have heard the underwhelming sound of crickets chirping?
Is the populace of the Ukraine so used to having a boot on their throat they are now fighting to decide whose foot it will be and not to get ANY boot off of their throats?
It reminds me of the two parties here in the USA, more and mroe each day it seems like both boots belong to the same bosy with one boot labeled Establishment Democrat and the other one labeled Establishment Republican and the body politic is the "Establishment".
Who is fighting for Ukraine for the Ukrainians...
Why would have have something against Ukrainians if I don’t support the idea of a CIA/State Dept/Soros-lead coup taking over the country ?
Did I have something against Egyptians when I opposed the installation of the Western operative Morsi as their ruler ?
I’m not worried about Putin and Russia “overpowering” the US; if they do things right, they’ll be moving towards peaceful prosperity. If they waste money on too much military spending and if they stand in the way of individual citizens’ prosperity, they will continue to struggle and have problems of their own, and their problems will get worse and worse.
International banking DOES do business with Russia; they did with the USSR. Did you know Ford built a plant in Gorky under Stalin ? During the “heady days” of the “Cold War”, when the establishment was trying to make Americans wet themselves with fear, a high-level Soviet diplomat would have dinner at W. Averell Harriman’s house ? Don’t that sound a little funky ? Why was one of our biggest capitalist / senior government confidant entertaining “the enemy” ? Perhaps the big red scare was more about government spending gone wild and using the US to accomplish the aims of international financial elites.
If the US government today (which I’m more concerned with, since I’m an American and my ancestors have been here since the 1600’s) CONTINUES to more and more stand in the way of individual citizens’ prosperity - we will be heading the way of socialism like the UK and Europe. That is far and away THE most significant NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE for America. America is moving towards a totalitarian police state with the NSA spying - and it still does not stop. Billions are spent on spying on Americans.
We have beefs with OUR administration here in America, with that Obama dude, the current occupant.
But Soros/CIA/State Dept does not try to “topple” the Obama administration. Hmmm... I wonder why.
Because the financial elites run America. The elites want to keep consolidating, combining banking systems, combining nations into groups of nations, “freeing up” international trade so THEY can profit, while they encourage countries like China to buy food and raw materials from the US, which has the effect of bidding up market prices of commodities, and export the work to them and third-world countries - which they know is slowly impoverishing Americans.
I posted above Soros activities in Ukraine dating from 2005 - 2013. THAT is from THEIR website. That’s what they are publicly acknowledging.
Please read the titles carefully - they are basically all about pushing Ukraine into the EU.
Here’s an informative video of Antony Sutton:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVWXmZB1wc
However, I don't think Vlad would go for it.
Certainly most Ukrainians would since that is their natural division ethnically, politically and religiously.
Vlad will protect his interests in the south and the east, militarily if necessary. The West will not.
The Ukrainians will have to stand alone, sadly. Their soil holds seas of their blood over this ongoing east-west battle.
It just so happens that this time the Putin talking points are correct.
Why ? How did this happen ? Doesn’t Putin always lie ?
Well, when you have blatantly open operations going on, people tend to find out.
If there actually IS Western involvement, and much of it is overt, not covert, it’s not surprise that Putin then points this out.
Just like the Syrian government keeps pointing out.
And there is plenty of public information available that points to funding in that one coming through Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
And it is well known that these are two “mini-me” satellite regimes of the US.
See, in the old days, if the US did a revolution in a Banana Republic, they at least went to great lengths to hide it - and even make sure all the government school textbooks taught the children the cover story.
Now, as evidenced by Victoria Nuland’s remark, and the entire Obama administration... nobody in government cares really much about appearances.
What difference does it make, you know ?
Seems to me the Ukrainians are doing just fine. It will get bloodier before it is over. The “people” appear to be well organized and effective. The attack on the APC scared the crap out of the cops because of it’s speed and effectiveness. The cops will hit harder tomorrow and will get sent packing again. Be interesting to see which side the military comes down on. There are some very determined people in the crowd and many are seriously pissed off.
De oppresso liber
the question is not if it sucks for the ukrainians, but if it sucks for us.
we aren’t in a position to change anything there nor is it our buisness to.
Just think, when America used to do assassinations, it was actually kept a secret.
Today, video is released to the public, and it’s heralded by the government. We’re told it was out of concerns for our “national security”. The guy had to be eliminated. He posed an existential threat to the United States of America.
There’s a couple things here. Put it in the context of the Georgia war that captured South Ossetia and Ahbkasia.
As of now Putin isn’t sure who will control the spigots of gas and oil that flow through Ukraine. In Georgia Putin instantly made entire regions Russian citizens by dumping passports from helicopters (literally) in Ahbkazia and South Osetia. (I was stuck in Tblisis). Putin KNEW Shakasvilli could do nothing to repel a Russian invasion so had no problem invading the region to control the spigots based out of Georgia on the black sea (Sohkumi). If Bush had showed any interference Georgia would have never been invaded so I’m guessing there were some back door dealings where Bush agreed to do nothing for poor Georgia.
Ukraine is different. It’s a 50 50 country. There is no love for either the EU or Russia. Putin doesn’t know who to help right now. One thing Putin is certain of is Obama is a complete coward and will support no one. If Obama even farts on one side Putin will pull out the Syria card and remind Obama of his “red line” statement. Obama is Putin’s bitch. In other words Obama will site in the corner while the adults take over the situations, for bad or worse.
My prediction is the Ukraine will be ignored by the EU and the western powers and will align, brutally, with Russia. The world knows Obama doesn’t have the stomach to stand up to Putin and nothing is more important to Obama than Obama. Western Europe doesn’t have the resources to counter Russia. If ANYONE would aid the uprising in Ukraine it would be former soviet bloc countries like Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, etc. but they won’t act without the US or the UK. Basically Ukraine, sadly, is screwed with this boy child president. The world knows what a coward Obama is and Putin plans to take full advantage of the situation. Wait until the Olympics end and the worlds’ cameras are off Russia. You will see true brutality.
PLEASE GOD, LET ME BE WRONG!!!
But all broken links, here.
If one wishes to see what was in actuality going on, one has to go digging. So no thanks.
The list as it is, doesn't look all that bad. Standards for journalists --- are you against such things?
In another post you go on about America assassinating someone (but don't say who) but seem to forget the 50+ journalists who investigated Russia's own down-to-the-bone GUILT of just about every charge you try to hurl at Western interests, trying to shift all blame on "Soros".
I ask again --- are you really THAT simple (minded)?
Or are the Russians paying you to steer public opinion on open forums, in the West.
You are mostly all heat -- and little to no light.
This kind of self-justification BS;
shows you are either wack-a-doodle, a simpleton, or in some manner in the thrall of Russian syndicate.
But the US shot who? -- Osama Bin Laden?
If you really do have something significant to say, clam down, bring clear evidence --- stop this mindless hurling of accusation, and all the ceaseless innuendo.
I agree without reservation.
Unfortunately our Boy President announced today there would be "consequences" if things don't turn out his way.
So you are saying that this is "evil"? --->What is the EaP?
The Eastern Partnership (EaP) is a European Union initiative directed at six countries of Eastern Europe and the South Caucasus: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. The EaP was launched by 27 EU member states and the six partner countries at a summit in Prague on 7 May 2009. The initiative aims at tightening the relationship between the EU and the Eastern partners by deepening their political co-operation and economic integration. The EaP neither promises nor precludes the prospect of EU membership to the partner states. It offers deeper integration with the EU structures by encouraging and supporting them in their political, institutional and economic reforms based on EU standards, as well as facilitating trade and increasing mobility between the EU and the partner states.
It's Eurocentric & bureaucratic enough, but some Soros-spawn plan to take over the world?
No, what is sought for are shared legal standards under which people can do business, from one nation to another.
That it could be exploited by corporations looking after their own financial interests, is par for the course.
Would we prefer laws to be made, then taken down, then changed willy-nilly to give over financial control of in-country investment, in the name of keeping multi-nationals who are not as much nationalistic as profit oriented from doing business?
No, Putin's talking points are only "correct" from perspective of maintaining Russian dominance over Ukraine and other nations on their borders.
The boogy-man propaganda you've been selling here, is in need of some adjustment.
The Russian oligarchs have little standing to being pointing accusatory fingers at their potential competition. But that's the Russian way, just keep spreading and smearing the tar, while cloaking themselves in "righteousness".
I complain due to the double-standards being applied. THe Russia business mobsters are not the friggin answer.
The US government unfortunately is not blameless when it comes to assassination, or these sorts of targeted killings.
Of course, this is NOT to say that the governments of other nations are blameless, as their body counts are, in some cases, well into the millions.
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_program
“The program was in operation between 1965 and 1972, and similar efforts existed both before and after that period. By 1972, Phoenix operatives had “neutralized” 81,740 suspected NLF operatives, informants and supporters, of whom between 26,000 and 41,000 were killed.”
From the Council on Foreign Relations website:
http://www.cfr.org/counterterrorism/targeted-killings/p9627
Excerpt:
“Targeted attacks launched from unmanned aerial vehicles, or drones, have ballooned under the Obama administration. A study undertaken by the New American Foundation reports that in his first two years of office, President Obama authorized nearly four times the number of strikes in Pakistan as President Bush did in his eight years. The report, which relies solely on media accounts of attacks, claims that some 291 strikes have been launched since 2009, killing somewhere between 1,299 and 2,264 militants, as of January 2013. Alternate reports also document the escalation in drone strikes in recent years, but the accounting of militant and civilian deaths can vary widely depending on the source.”
Anyone have an update?
Drone attacks, ok? But against whom? The very same sort (Islamists) who the Russians have gone to war with, even as they also need cosy up to some of them.
Does Chechnya ring any bells for you?
Meanwhile, among about a third of the Iranians, the words "Death to America" are like pure poetry.
Who's side are you on? Pick one.
Negotiations and trade agreements ok.
Inciting overthrow of government not ok.
Russia not the answer. True.
Did you read where I compare the Euro group and the Russian group to the Banannos and the Gambinos ? Those are crime families I’m comparing them to.
I make the “radical” statement to make some fun, but make the point:
Russian puppet is not right, Western/Euro/US puppet is not right.
How many times must I repeat this.
Ukraine should control Ukraine.
It’s called national sovereignty.
Every country wants national sovereignty.
If they internally want to have a revolution - that’s up to them. But should I go over there and get a revolution started ? Absolutely not. I’m not a Ukrainian, I have no right to.
I would think that there are still some influential people within the Ukrainian government that are partial to Russia and want to move closer to them.
It will therefore take time for Ukraine, newly independent little country, to be left more and more to self-determine, as older folks start retiring and younger folks start participating more.
Maybe, just maybe, Ukraine could trade with anyone and everyone Ukraine wants to.
It will probably take the Ukrainian people and the governments they elect some time to decide, even if they’re left alone to decide.
What "rebellion" are you talking about? The protests against the Moscow-backed Ukrainian president who swept away the reforms of the "Orange Revolution", ceding power over to -- himself?
Then by default, you seem to be saying Ukraine was never (in recent past) an independent nation, but instead, just a Russian vassal/hedge/border State which must return to subordination of the glorious Moscow.
The examples you list of grants being supplied in interests of furthering those stated causes are not crimes, but were part of the overall European effort, to assist Ukraine in bridging [perceived] gaps between themselves and the Ukraine, which was being negotiated on by the Ukrainian government both before AND after Moscow's candidate won high office.
It's not a CIA/Soros backed "coup", (though those entities are not aligned with Russian interests in the matter). It was above board and legitimate, even IF Soros was putting some of his own wealth towards those ends.
You make it sound like the CIA/Soros combo (if there is such a thing) initiated the entire affair.
That's what the EU, in all it bureaucratic windbagginess towering mounds of paperwork building, was trying to do. bless their little 'ol hearts...
Russia has been doing everything it can to prevent that from happening. It's like -- pointing at all the EU paperwork and threatening -- don't you dare --- while also manipulating the political scene in Ukraine as much as they can, at the same time. Meanwhile, the EU itself has some cracking going on, around the edges of their own foundations...
What we are seeing is the blowback from the Ukrainian people to the cynical Russian intrusions -- that demands that only their(Russian) demands be met -- or else.
You know what? Previously, in regards to the Russians murdering journalists who dug a bit too deep into the background info of Russian business & political climate -=-- to the North Vietnamese being targeted by U.S. Special Ops, when the United States was (rightly or wrongly) at war with those peoples.
Are you really that far off center?
Ukraine should control Ukraine.
NOW you tell me!?!
Soros should not have anything to do with Ukraine as he’s not a Ukrainian citizen.
If I was doing business in France, would I take it upon myself to start trying to, say, get it to leave the EU ?
Quite simply, I’d be afraid of bad business consequences for me if I got too pushy with government officials. I might make what friends I could personally and try to convince them through simple personal debate, but that’s about it. No money, no organizations. I’d be too afraid. Then again, I’m not a billionaire.
And, if the government resisted the effort, would I persist and start building an organization to do that, in including getting involved in ANY way with protestors who wanted the current French government to stand down ?
I would expect some French agents to come try to knock me off if I did that.
The rebellion I’m talking about is what is going on right now in Ukraine.
To you, I seem like I work for Russia, to me, you seem like you work for Soros !
I could of course see internal bad reactions politically to sweeping away the reforms. I remember seeing that story, thinking, oh, that sounds like a bad move.
When you say “assist Ukraine in bridging gaps”... the word Ukraine sounds lofty, but whose progress are the Europeans interested in, Europe’s or Ukraine’s ?
Then you say it was not a CIA/Soros backed “coup”, but that can’t be proven any more than that it was. Only insiders really know.
The turf war between Russia and the West is dumb. There’s no need in business or trade to give the short end of the stick to someone unless the trading partners are greedy. Otherwise, how could trading partners that do happily trade with each other do so ? It’s like the establishments of the various countries just want games to continue. IMHO, at the behest of their local financial elites.
What’s really goofy is that one well-placed guy once said that the major goal was to eventually get the US and Russia to merge, as a final step to unification. Of course, world government is a horrifically bad idea. I’m not suggesting that Russia and the West ever be joined (I’m an absolute believer in national sovereignty) - but certainly it should be possible with where things are today to get along fine.
But that doesn’t fit in with the plans of transnational financial elites.
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