Posted on 10/24/2013 8:52:10 PM PDT by freedom462
So I know that on FR and similar forums there is often intense debate about whether or not free speech should be absolute or if it should only cover political protests. And what the Founding Fathers would say about free speech if they could see what is coming out in our media.
It has become dicey now that we have insanely misogynistic and anti white hip hop, including particularly anti American hip hop depicted as having a "political message" of some sort. There's Lady Gaga, for whom not much at all needs to be said. And I think a fair number of social conservatives would even see the influence of heavy metal over the years, particularly such bands as Pantera, Marilyn Manson, Slayer and many of the resulting death/industrial metal bands as a serious problem that should concern as as much as any other social issue.
This is an issue where social conservatives say that a. The Founding Fathers never intended free speech to cover this and b. This is destroying our nation as much or even more so than our govt's mismanaging of the economy and so should be treated as a national emergency of sorts. On this issue, interestingly enough, libertarians, liberals and constitutional conservatives all seem to think that these fears are often way overblown and have little basis in reality.
So I was wondering which side do you take?
And for movies, well in addition the hyper sexualization and celebration of adultery, about which plenty has been said already, there is also the issue of whether or not the depictions of violence have gotten much more problematic in the past and whether or not this should be considered a social issue and these kind of movies should not be protected free speech. This refers to action movies known for over the top violence, for example "Kick Ass", Kick Ass 2" and pretty much anything Quentin Tarantino has made int he past 12 years or so and graphic horror movies in the vein of the Saw and Hostel series.
And the same debate rages, and again social conservatives seem to be on the other side and libertarians - both left and right - liberals and constitutional conservatives all seem to be on the other side.
So I was wondering which side do you take?
And lastly, do any of the constitutional/fiscal conservatives and/or libertarians around here ever have severe guilty pleasure moments, where they find themselves liking a particular musician or music genre or a movie and they are not sure if they should be enjoying it and they wonder if enjoying it makes them a bad conservative but they do it anyway. I admit that happens to be since I still love my Pantera and Slayer and Iron Maiden and even some melodic death metal even though I realize some conservatives are not even sure if it should be legal. Ditto for movies - I have still periodically enjoyed such movies as Battle Royal, Hostel, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, House of 1000 corpses and Devil's Rejects, Wrong Turn, Audition and various B movies in the same vein, and am aware that some conservatives would not only say that it makes me on the wrong track morally, and therefore useless as an ally to conservatives, but also say that it means I need to be removed from the gene pool immediately.
Does that ever happen to forum members here, again particularly if you are a constitutional conservative or libertarian?
If you want to know what the Founding Fathers actually intended with the First Amendment, read what they wrote and study how they lived after the Constitution was signed.
Pinging some posters here who have been interested in discussing these types of issues before on both our music and the movies we watch.
I would also be interested in what people on the libertarian and nanny state ping lists have to say on this issue. If you prefer simply to keep them out that is fine of course but I was interested in what they had to say too.
Figured I would include you as well since you also happen to be a freeper who has written novels that could be adapted into some of the best movies of the last decade.
Yeah, I know where you’re coming from, as I actually kind of liked “Kick Ass,” but don’t care for the likes of Miley Cyrus, but as has been pointed out, that sort of smut has been around forever.
I agree with full free speech, but I think the battle needs to be won on cultural taste and acceptance. There was a time where majority of people knew what was culturally acceptable. I guess one could argue that it is the fault of film/music/etc. to push the envelope, desensitizing us, but.... not sure where I’m going with this. I do think there is an extent to where “free speech” should not impact some basic human values. Free speech shouldn’t protect child pornography, etc.
You’ve picked a tough topic to comment on, but I hope others can elucidate more adequately than I.
I think people falsely perceive social conservatives as wanting big speech limits.
The truly big limits are on Christian speech.
Bogus church state separation interpretations mean relentless attacks on the church and bans on reciprocal defense.
This annoys me about libertarians who tend to confirm and support the anti religious bias.
If I like the movie, I stay to watch. If not, I leave and give a non-recommend. Or I ask for a refund.
As to your movies and music... let the free market and social pressure control them, not government. I do not like excessive violence in entertainment, but I do not want government laws restricting people based on my views of right and wrong. I like the rating system so famlies can know what is involved in the entertainment, but I would never want government controlling free market products, even if the government restrictions align with my tastes, morals, or views.
Fair enough. If someone admits to liking some of the movies I listed above, i.e. Battle Royal, Hostel, The Hills Have Eyes, Last House on the Left, Halloween, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, House of 1000 corpses and Devil’s Rejects, Wrong Turn, Audition and various B horror exploitation movies in a similar vein, would you necessarily consider that person a total social degenerate who should not be allowed in public? and do you ever find yourself liking movies or music that you feel as a conservative you should not be enjoying?
A well-thought out discussion point. It’s a tough one isn’t it.
I think that all political speech is protected. OWS wants to have a peaceful march (possible?), fine by me. KKK want to have a march, fine by me.
I will say that groups clearly linked to rogue or enemy governments or foreign terrorist organizations (eg - CAIR, CPUSA) should be arrested and imprisoned. You cannot work with our enemies.
When it comes to the media.. what are you going to do? I think our libel laws should be stronger, so that when MSNBC does something like that Zimmerman tape editing, they really get hammered, but if a left wing outfit wants to masquerade as news, go ahead. That’s free speech. The government should not be able to coerce with the media (that’s grounds for ethics violations). But the media is becoming less of a force with the internet and such anyway.
With regard to music, movies, etc. I would never want such articles banned. I myself am a fan of some of those movies you mentioned. I do think we have to take action to prevent kids getting access to these things however. They are destroying our children, especially the video games and modern music. Is Miley screwing Thicke on stage appropriate for daytime T.V.? No. Is a parent who lets her kid play GTA IV at the age of 7 being responsible? No.
When it comes to children, there are limits on what you can promote to them. I find the Russian law to be something that would pass constitutional muster here, because it bans promotion of unhealthy practices to minors. We have an obligation to protect minors from harmful material.
I take the 1st amendment to be one of the most important to protect, especially for political speech, and ‘hate speech’ laws should be forever criminalized in this country. You are allowed to insult someone as much as you like and as viciously as you like, as long as you are not libeling them in public.
I would probably concur with that. Just curious, do you know anyone you’d consider a hardcore conservative who likes stuff like Kick Ass, QT exploitation type films or graphic horror a lot more so than you would?
I believe.
And free speech also should not protect showing pornography to minors.
Troll, meet Admin Moderator. Admin Moderator, meet troll.
Well, I’ll admit, I have a vast DVD collection, and it runs from Kick-Ass to Hostel.
DVDs are so last century. Go digital. :p
/johnny
I’d amassed the collection before all that came along. I guess I just have that antiquated attitude of actually wanting to have ‘stuff’. You know, that you can hold.
This whole thread of nonsense definitely qualifies as trolling in my book :-)
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