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Close Quarters Carbines, Square Ranges, CQB, Weapons Manipulation and Tactics
Total Survivalist Libertarian Rantfest ^ | 6/8/13 | Ryan

Posted on 06/09/2013 7:15:53 AM PDT by LibWhacker

Close Quarters Carbines, Square Ranges, CQB, Weapons Manipulation and Tactics

  Max Velocity wrote an interesting post called The Great Tactical Training Con. I agree with him in some regards but disagree in others. This stumbles into something I have been thinking about for awhile.

Over the past few years or maybe the last decade the role of the rifle in close quarters fighting has changed.  What used to be considered almost solely shotgun territory has become dominated by AR's, AK's, etc all. These rifles hold 30 rounds and reload themselves which is pretty handy. Not taking anything away from shotguns but their primary benefits are low cost, legality in non permissive environments and versatility, not capacity or reloading. At the same time these rifles have come into prominence CQB (close quarters battle) has become the buzz word and all the rage. Though really SRM (short range marksmanship) is probably more accurate. There are all sorts of courses, classes, video's and such to teach you to be a super cool Sammy Seal type guy.

We need to realize that firearms training is a business. As a business the firearms training industry wants to sell people on paying money to take classes. They want to be able to offer classes in as many places as possible, with the lowest overhead possible, to as many customers as possible. Many of them are genuinely good people who want to train people to use weapons to defend their selves but they also like making money.

The average American range is probably a hundred meters wide and a couple hundred long. They have a safe backstop but limited capacity for movement and very little capacity for shooting in different directions. These ranges can support shooting from 0 to whatever meters strait downrange. People can move a bit left or right as long as they still shoot downrange. They can move forward and back also but still shooting must be in the same downrange direction.

Shooting in multiple directions while moving or static is significantly more complicated. Instead of needing a relatively safe backstop in one direction for a fairly narrow arc you need a lot of space. I'm talking roughly 2+ kilometers in any direction you will shoot in to support shooting rifles. Of course a backstop like a rock quarry or a cliff cuts that down a but but we are still talking a lot of space. Due to the lack of spaces that can readily support this type of training it is a lot easier to gravitate to what we call the square ranges. Folks do this because there are many more ranges that can be used for training that way.

CQB as the cool kids call it is simply using rifles to engage targets at close range, we'll say under 50 meters to keep things simple. Lots of ready up drills, turn and shoot, etc. Reloads are of course mixed into all of this. There is movement but it is usually limited to a few steps in whatever direction. This is good stuff. If you use a rifle for home defense you have to know this stuff (if you use a shotgun do the same thing with it).

A person who is not trained in this stuff can make huge strides in a day of instruction. Part of the business side of the firearms industry is that trainers can leave people feeling good about what they learned wanting to take another class. They can offer Cool Guy CQB Sammy Seal Classes 1-6 or whatever.

CQB is important. I have heard it described, I think by American Mercenary, as a survival skill set. That is true I think in that it's how civilians are going to realistically fight with a rifle. Joe the Engineer who lives in the Burbs or Frank the Farmer are not going to get into 300 meter gunfights. They are going to hear something that shouldn't be in the garage, grab their gun then check it out. People start moving and a 7 meter fight becomes a 50 meter fight but we are still within CQB ranges.

Like anything it is too easy to get overly focused in on one thing. The Tactical Tommy types can practice regularly andgo to 20 classes yet never shoot past 50 meters with a rifle capable of 400 meter accuracy. On the other end of the spectrum there are some high power types and sniper wanna be's who are hyper focused on long distance shooting.Which one of them is right? Neither of them are right. They are wrong on the opposite ends. The CQB Ninja needs to learn how to reach out and touch someone. Mr. High Power needs to learn to rapidly engage targets at close range.

There have been some interesting discussions by Mountain Guerilla and American Mercenary about how much of each skill set you need. In general I am a fan of balance. Instead of being great at either end of the spectrum focus on being competent engaging targets at close range quickly all the way out to putting accurate hate on folks a few football fields away. However if I had to get pegged into a more specific answer I would lean towards CQB for civilians whose rifle concept of use is defensive. The reason is that they are far more likely to fight up close than far away. Yes if you stand in the middle of the road in front of the house you can probably see pretty far, however the odds of you being there with somebody on the other end 400 meters away shooting at you are low. On the other hand getting in a gunfight with somebody in your house or trying to jack your car is considerably higher.

I agree with Max that most 'tactical training' is a bit square range  focused. However I look at it differently. This training is weapons manipulation. Teaching folks to engage targets, reload and clear malfunctions, etc. While some folks sell it as such this is not IMO tactics. It could be argued this is teaching you how to fight as a civilian in a close quarters situation to which I would agree. However if you want to remove some qualifiers, maybe add some friends and such you get into what I consider tactical training. How to move and engage targets, alone or as part of a team.

The two things are sort of different. Think of weapons manipulations as punching and tactics as boxing. Both are important. Weapons manipulations are essential but they sort of happen in a vacuum.  Tactics and small unit training like the stuff Mountain Guerilla and Max Velocity teach to be able to put use your weapons manipulation skills into the realistic environment of the two way range.

Anyway those are my thoughts on that.



TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: banglist; carbines; cqb; training

1 posted on 06/09/2013 7:15:53 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

A nice M-2 Carbine updated with the latest external equipment. Modern folding stock, Picatinny rail system, etc.


2 posted on 06/09/2013 7:29:08 AM PDT by headstamp 2 (What would Scooby do?)
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sfl


3 posted on 06/09/2013 7:36:48 AM PDT by phockthis (http://www.supremelaw.org/fedzone11/index.htm ...)
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To: LibWhacker
It would seem to me that this kind of training cries for a type of special purpose simulation ammo, something that would tag a target without possibility of major injury, the equivalent of a .223 paint-ball if you will.

Is such available?

4 posted on 06/09/2013 7:42:42 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (An economy is not a zero-sum game, but politics usually is.)
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To: Carry_Okie

Simunition


5 posted on 06/09/2013 7:48:50 AM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: Carry_Okie

Good point. I don’t know.

Yeah, I don’t think I’d be comfortable with a bunch of random weekend warriors swinging around AR-15s in an environment where safety wasn’t ultra uber strict, which I’m assuming it is at the better classes, like Mosby’s. Those reservations aside, I’d still love to take a few of his classes!


6 posted on 06/09/2013 7:51:16 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: spetznaz; GladesGuru; Squantos
Simunition

Thanks!

From the description, it sounds pricey, but I found 50-round boxes at $0.90/round in 9mm. I'd suspect that in a bulk buy for a training facility they could get it for half to two-thirds as much.

All of that would mean that one would not have to arrange for a lot of land in a remote location forcing customers drive forever. It would make an urban setting into an affordable business, as the buildings would already be there. Nor would it be necessary to clear the area in some cases... Why, I'd suspect one could pick up an appropriate location in Detroit for next to nothing! Additional urban ferals with which to enhance the sense of realism would be free! Not to mention the occasional call to prayer floating across the landscape, all for effect...

Of course, one might have to fight their way in to get to the facility. ;-)

7 posted on 06/09/2013 8:07:39 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (An economy is not a zero-sum game, but politics usually is.)
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To: LibWhacker

A game of Airsoft with some friends is a great training aid. If your wife will allow it, try it inside the house and you’ll learn just how fast and deadly CQB can be. Then, when you go to the square range to shoot your real guns, you’ll realize that any range that demands slow fire at 15+ yards is worthless.

Practice trigger control with a laser-equipped (and unloaded) gun in your living room.

Practice CQB with Airsoft.

Practice double taps and recoil recovery at a range that permits mutiple targets and rapid fire. Even if they’re side-by-side, two targets gets you used to clearing one threat and moving to another.

Then, go to the slow fire range to practice your hunting skills.


8 posted on 06/09/2013 8:13:20 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Carry_Okie
sure, and it's not cheap... simunition.com
9 posted on 06/09/2013 8:21:50 AM PDT by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: LibWhacker

Two answers:

1. Paintball for “real-life” training in CQB tactics.

2. Saiga 12G semi-auto bullpup for the real thing.


10 posted on 06/09/2013 8:32:10 AM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: Carry_Okie

And save enough ammo to fight they’re way back out....:o)

Simunitions has the sting factor going for it.... You play laser tag you take chances IMO. You play simunitions tag you know it will hurt. Thus IMO comes what a lot of training can’t bring.

Fear.

When you do a shoot house or simunitions range etc one will gray out, get tunnel vision etc and do some really really bizarre stupid things such as two speed reloads without firing a shot. You mind is taxed to the nth degree and stress is imposed.

A really good shoot house will present sounds, visual distractions be they threats or non threats. Last one I trained at had a pigeon coop inside. Birds flying up and down the corridors, lots of birds and the associated crap to slip and slide in.

My instructor was guarding my six with a mp5. He would shoot short and long bursts as we cleared the structure. It’s very very hard to not look at what he was or wasn’t shooting at behind me. Did he hit his target, was he hit and my back was now vulnerable ? Other players were very good and when or if you turned to check they nailed ya.

Good stress, loud noise, no noise, low light, no light, distractions live or inanimate , tired from running, exertion heat sweat or even having a instructor place a couple of marbles in your boots to create pain as you move to contact etc.... Tactics, skill sets and muscle memory reaction learned thru repetition , failure or success repetition is key to overcome the minds desire to make one do such silly crap that will get you or yours kilt DRT (dead right there).....

I believe that targets that do not shoot back are great for shooting as one heel toes the route into and out of danger is fine.

But to apply stress....... Fun fun fun.

Stay safe !


11 posted on 06/09/2013 9:46:57 AM PDT by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: Carry_Okie

“Of course, one might have to fight their way in to get to the facility. ;-) “

Michigan does have relaxed gun transportation laws.

Loading an AR-15 takes only a few seconds, and a ride to such a training facility in such a location would enhance “Situational Awareness” training.

Given the present trajectory of Urban Feral attacks, the day may come when those moving into or out of Urban Feral habitat might well have to convoy up.

Hmmmn - think of shooting buffalo from a moving train. Who said history does not repeat itself?


12 posted on 06/09/2013 9:51:59 AM PDT by GladesGuru (Islam is antithetical to, and Islam is irreconcilable with, America. Therefore - Islam Delenda Est)
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To: spetznaz

I’ve seen some of that used. Pretty cool stuff


13 posted on 06/09/2013 11:06:34 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: LibWhacker

Bookmark.


14 posted on 06/09/2013 2:14:28 PM PDT by grobdriver
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