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DEA "Speaking Out Against Drug Legalization" Claim 6- a rebuttal
(self) | Jan 4, 2013 | (self)

Posted on 01/04/2013 1:21:20 PM PST by JustSayNoToNannies

The DEA Web pages on "Speaking Out Against Drug Legalization" are linked with some regularity on FR. They're full of errors in fact and logic; since I couldn't find a comprehensive rebuttal online, I've started creating one. Here's my rebuttal to their "Fact 6;" more to come as time permits. ("Fact 1" rebutted at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2858443/posts; "Fact 2" at /focus/f-bloggers/2861557/posts; "Fact 3" at /focus/f-bloggers/2864032/posts; "Fact 4" at /focus/f-bloggers/2893202/posts; "Fact 5" at /focus/f-bloggers/2932390/posts.)

Claim 6: "Legalization of Drugs will Lead to Increased Use and Increased Levels of Addiction. Legalization has been tried before, and failed miserably."

  • Claim: Legalization proponents claim, absurdly, that making illegal drugs legal would not cause more of these substances to be consumed, nor would addiction increase.

    Fact: As is typical, the DEA provides no direct quotations in support of this claim about what legalization proponents say. And it's unlikely that addiction would rise in lockstep with use; illegality both discourages use by non-addicts more than use by addicts and incentivizes behaviors that can increase the likelihood of addiction, such as getting as high as possible at every instance of use. When the mind-altering drug alcohol was illegal during Prohibition, anyone who drank set out to get thoroughly drunk - witness the increased popularity of hard liquor relative to wine and beer (http://www.prohibitionrepeal.com/history/bb_roaring.asp).

    Claim: They claim that many people can use drugs in moderation and that many would choose not to use drugs, just as many abstain from alcohol and tobacco now. Yet how much misery can already be attributed to alcoholism and smoking? Is the answer to just add more misery and addiction?

    Fact: Is the answer to decrease misery and addiction by criminalizing alcohol and tobacco? Has the DEA ever heard of Prohibition?

  • Claim: It's clear from history that periods of lax controls are accompanied by more drug abuse and that periods of tight controls are accompanied by less drug abuse.

    In 1880, many drugs, including opium and cocaine, were legal - and, like some drugs today, seen as benign medicine not requiring a doctor's care and oversight. Addiction skyrocketed.
  • During the 19th Century, morphine was legally refined from opium and hailed as a miracle drug. Many soldiers on both sides of the Civil War who were given morphine for their wounds became addicted to it, and this increased level of addiction continued throughout the nineteenth century and into the twentieth. In 1880, many drugs, including opium and cocaine, were legal - and, like some drugs today, seen as benign medicine not requiring a doctor's care and oversight. Addiction skyrocketed. There were over 400,000 opium addicts in the U.S. That is twice as many per capita as there are today.

  • By 1900, about one American in 200 was either a cocaine or opium addict.

    Fact: As FReeper Ken H has pointed out:

    "So we had 400,000 opium addicts in 1880, many of whom were addicted Civil War veterans. The population of the US in 1880 was around 50M. That works out to an addiction rate of 0.8% in 1880. Now, in 1900 the addiction rate to either opium or cocaine was 0.5%.

    "So in 1880 there were 0.8% addicted to opium vs 0.5% to either opium or cocaine in 1900. The DEA is telling us that addiction declined substantially between 1880 and 1900, despite these drugs being legal."Claim: Among the reforms of this era was the Federal Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, which required manufacturers of patent medicines to reveal the contents of the drugs they sold. In this way, Americans learned which of their medicines contained heavy doses of cocaine and opiates - drugs they had now learned to avoid.

Fact: So the DEA admits that Americans modify their drug use in light of information - undermining its claim above that it's laxity or tightness of drug policy that determines rates of abuse and addiction.

The Alaska Experiment and Other Failed Legalization Ventures

 


TOPICS: Government; Politics
KEYWORDS: dea; drugs; drugwar; warondrugs; wod; wodlist; wosd
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
Lying is generally legal, as is acting unlovingly toward one's spouse and being uncharitable toward the poor. Do you support criminalizing all these sinful acts?

Biblical law; the crimes and penalties are all there for all to see.
41 posted on 01/07/2013 9:10:51 AM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen
So you believe the civil government should stone to death unruly sons (Deut 21:18-21)?
42 posted on 01/07/2013 9:17:18 AM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
You quote from Zephaniah 3:15 in your tagline; are you a professing Christian ?

Yes.

And yet you argue for laws that are directly contrary to Scripture ?

Only a law mandating sinful acts would be directly contrary to Scripture.


No, if an act is described in the Bible as a sin that merits the death penalty, and our civil laws do not say that the act merits the death penalty, then our civil laws are unscriptural.

Theft is against the moral law of the Bible and also illegal under our civil laws. But in Nevada, prostitution is legal, however in the Bible is merits the death penalty. We can't pick and choose which moral laws of the Bible we want to codify in our laws and which we choose to ignore or decrease the penalties according to our own tastes, and then rightly claim before God that our laws are compatible with Scripture.
43 posted on 01/07/2013 9:18:20 AM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

I believe that the full quote, being part of Scripture, is commanded by God as revealed in his Holy Word:

Deuteronomy 21

“18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

Furthermore, in Deuteronomy 19, we see this:

“15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;

17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.”

So if the parents are caught testifying falsely about this, then they would receive the penalty themselves.


44 posted on 01/07/2013 9:26:35 AM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen
My position: "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written: Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue." - Gal 3:13, 24-25
45 posted on 01/07/2013 9:36:58 AM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: PieterCasparzen
Awaiting your response to post #38.
46 posted on 01/07/2013 9:41:04 AM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: PieterCasparzen
The only purpose to taking drugs is drunkenness. Alcoholic drinks are part of eating and drinking, drugs are not. Drugs have one purpose - getting drunk.

You're saying that like it matters or is anyones business except the ones using drugs and alcohol. And the feds don't have any authority under the constitution to make either one of those things illegal. I know you really want it to be there, but it's not.

47 posted on 01/07/2013 9:53:26 AM PST by Orangedog (An optimist is someone who tells you to 'cheer up' when things are going his way)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

some liberturdians want to abolish the age of consent altogether


48 posted on 01/07/2013 11:07:08 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: GeronL
Such people are nuts (and quite possibly pedophiles).

Anything to say about the subject of the thread?

49 posted on 01/07/2013 11:20:30 AM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

drug legalization is a retarded idea


50 posted on 01/07/2013 11:25:30 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: GeronL
drug legalization is a retarded idea

Why is that - because the War On Drugs is working so well?

51 posted on 01/07/2013 11:34:19 AM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

about as well as the war on murder and the war on rape is


52 posted on 01/07/2013 11:38:13 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: GeronL
Why is that - because the War On Drugs is working so well?

about as well as the war on murder and the war on rape is

Wrong. As I've already posted in this thread: According to the FBI, two out of three murder cases are cleared; in contrast, the number for drug sales is assuredly no more than two out of three-thousand.

53 posted on 01/07/2013 11:51:51 AM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

lolz.

two out of seven hundred billion, probably

and that would mean we should stop saying its wrong?


54 posted on 01/07/2013 12:02:13 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: GeronL
two out of seven hundred billion, probably

A manful concession that your "about as well as the war on murder" was way wrong.

and that would mean we should stop saying its wrong?

Say it's wrong all you want - but since it violates nobody's rights, and laws against it are manifest failures, let's stop blowing $40 billion a year of the taxpayers' money on those laws.

55 posted on 01/07/2013 12:08:59 PM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

Matthew 5

“17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

John 14

“15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

Romans 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

Romans 6

“1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

“12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”

Romans 7

“5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.”

A honest study of Scripture reveals that the moral law of the Old Testament is not abrogated but eternal. The ceremonial laws, the system of sacrifice that typified and pointed to Christ are not needed after Christ’s one perfect sacrifice on the cross. In Galatians 4 Paul goes on to write what he was concerned about:

Galatians 4:10 “Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.”

He continues with circumsion in Galatians 5:

“3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

This is the “law” that is declared as not the path to salvation. But in the same chapter, the Apostle goes on to condemn the breaking of Old Testament moral law:

Galatians 5

“13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”

Over and over we see that the New Testament does not abrogate any of the Old Testament moral law, and in no way is drunkenness somehow acceptable to God under the New Covenant.


56 posted on 01/07/2013 12:21:28 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen
Over and over we see that the New Testament does not abrogate any of the Old Testament moral law

I see nowhere that the Old Testament penalties remain in place.

Still awaiting your response to post #38.

57 posted on 01/07/2013 12:43:54 PM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
post 38... the hash browny argument ? You're actually claiming that food/pot combination of hash brownies is your basis for claiming that the exhortation of Galatians 5:21 to refrain from drunkenness does not cover pot, because some people cook pot into brownies ?

Just to repeat so there is no mistake:

Galations 5:21 "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Drunkenness is right alongside murder in the list, so it's not a list of lesser sins, but it's pointing out that sins still are sins, and one can be sure that the unrepentent sinner who continues in habitual sin is at that point an unregenerate soul.

Hash brownies are only eaten by people seeking to get high. They don't eat them for the fine taste of the brownie and hash combination, like Coq au vin or something.

When I experienced my conversion, I went through a time of actually being torn about earthly things, traditions, etc., trying to rationalize them. I finally understood that Christ calls us to give up our desires and bow the knee to him, and live as he says we should.

I see nowhere that the Old Testament penalties remain in place.

Please refer to the quotes from our Lord himself from my prior post, i.e., "jot or tittle", etc.; there is nowhere that they are repealed. If you review what I posted and read those whole chapters you will see that they are a whole exposition on the fact that the moral law continues for Christians. Corrupt Churches today preach against this true doctrine, and they preach all sorts of other heresies as well - but they do this to their own destruction.

I have quoted Scripture for you to the best of my ability, I urge you to truly seek after the Lord, beyond that we are simply repeating ourselves here - is it not perhaps best to consign this to future ponderings ?
58 posted on 01/07/2013 1:31:59 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen
post 38... the hash browny argument ? You're actually claiming that food/pot combination of hash brownies is your basis for claiming that the exhortation of Galatians 5:21

Post 38 had much more in it than that - and had nothing to do with Scripture. Try again.

If you review what I posted and read those whole chapters you will see that they are a whole exposition on the fact that the moral law continues for Christians.

The question at hand is whether the imposition of Old Testament penalties (e.g., death for an unruly son) by civil governments is prescribed; I don't see that it is.

59 posted on 01/07/2013 2:18:21 PM PST by JustSayNoToNannies ("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
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To: PieterCasparzen
The Biblical argument is simpler - the Bible exhorts us to refrain from drunkenness.

Yes. Which applies to my main point that societal institutions and their influence are more effective than government's laws.

And, yes, also, to your example of turning right on red. But that's a trifling matter. The personal reward for turning right does not outweigh the penalty for doing it.

We haven't come up yet with the penalty that would convince people that using drugs (or alcohol) isn't worth it. Perhaps, the death penalty for possession, but I don't think that would, either.

It is obvious to me that our increasingly draconian drug war has not worked. Yes. People will destroy their lives. But we can't seem to stop them.

And though I'm pleased you do see the abuses of the War on Drugs [SWAT teams, etc.], that is only the logical progression of a crusade based on laws and punishment. If it hasn't worked yet; get tougher.

60 posted on 01/07/2013 4:00:00 PM PST by BfloGuy (Money, like chocolate on a hot oven, was melting in the pockets of the people..)
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