Posted on 10/31/2012 9:08:23 PM PDT by EveningStar
The Abraham Lincoln of popular perception is a mythological figure. He has little to do with the actual 16th president.
(Excerpt) Read more at canada.com ...
That's not what I said. Go back and read it; I said that it's something we have in common w/ N. Korea. (Implying that we really ought to seriously consider the policy.)
But then again, all the "how good we have it" can come crashing down in nearly an instant -- the US can indeed become the sort of place where starvation is the general rule, only a fool says "it can't happen here."
Correct.
Certain taxes are indeed necessary, for the maintaining of the military for instance or state and local taxes for the police. But as for me, most I feel are unnecessary and do amounted to theft. Actually aside from the military if it were up to me everything that has the words “Department of’’ in front of it should be abolished. The Constitution never said anything about the need for or the legitimacy of, say, The Dept. of Education or Transportation.
Agreed for the most part; though the Department of Transportation may be one of the few Constitutionally allowed departments, along with the post office.
I believe withholding taxes were enacted during WW2
Starvation in the US? Look, you’re really being silly here, just stop it okay?
Wow. You really want to say that there can't be starvation in the US?
There's [IIRC] less than 20 rail 'choke points' in the US, where all rail shipping goes through; if all of them were hit at once [terrorism] do you know what the impact on shipping would be?
There's a shortage of pilots, thousands short, right now and in the coming few years it's going to be much more severe as large portions hit mandatory retirement age. What is that going to do to our shipping?
The ULSD [Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel] has already caused the price of Diesel to rocket (historically it was always cheaper than gasoline), and caused many trucking companies to go out of business; do you know what that's already done to our shipping? (And what will happen if Diesel gets even more expensive?)
Those are just the shipping sides of things; the government's intrusion into their affairs has caused a lot of trouble for them and a few more regulations may be all that's needed to break the camel's back.
If shipping goes belly up, there will be starvation. Period.
Except the Constitution, agreed to by the states does constrain the sovereignty of the states. In particular, article III requires states to resolve controversies between states, or between states and the federal government with the supreme court as original jurisdiction.
That would make unilateral secession unconstitutional. Every state boundary must be agreed to by the parties on both sides. The states in insurrection had no case, and did not even file their controversy with the court. They were thugs, and resorted to war because they had no legal or moral argument.
What really bugs you is that confederate money you stockpiled is not honored.
Certainly the Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation. What is did not do is end the perpetual union, but rather it made the Union more perfect. The Congress of the Confederation passed a law transferring its powers to the new Constitutional government. The outgoing President of the United States stood next to President Washington as GW took his oath of office. Depending on how you count, GW was about the 17th president of the Union.
What are you talking about?
"The validity of the public debt of the United States [...] shall not be questioned." means that we have absolutely no legitimate Constitutional method to challenge the government incurring debt [on our behalf]... IOW, it is one of the major things working against fiscal accountability.
In fact, it could be argued that clause could prevent any sort of investigation into the Federal Reserve concerning debt-monies. The congress can literally incur public debt, on your behalf, regardless of your assent and use it for nearly anything and you can't do a thing about it... hell, they could go to a loanshark and snap up usurious interest rates and put you into eternal economic slavery: and you cannot question its validity.
Try using kerosene instead of diesel.
Taxes have been laid on diesel to make its price higher. What bugs me is they probably take the diesel tax money to create carpool lanes that diesel trucks are not permitted to use, or worse yet, siphoned off to use on ‘light rail’.
Please remove the referenced image.
Always remember, if you have no guns, you are stockpiling food and water for someone else.
Ammunition is also good barter fodder.
And when things get really really bad, your coworkers are edible. (/sarc)
And I'm saying there can be.
For cryin’ out loud get a freakin’ grip!
I have one; you apparently don't. (Have you been involved in anti-terrorism operations, at any level? I have.)
We throw food out by the ton in this nation everyday!
And prior to 2008 the US had never had its credit rating downgraded; does that mean that it couldn't be? Obviously not.
The things currently plentiful are by no means guaranteed to stay plentiful.
Anyone with a backyard, like I've got can grow food and raise chickens. People in my neighborhood have been doing that for years.
Can you grow enough to fully feed your family? Moreover, do you have the ability to defend what you have from those who would wish to take it? In a state of starvation the police will not be on your side: they will be on their own side. (Furthermore, how many people don't have back yards?)
I'm not saying that we will see mass starvation in the US, but it is not an impossibility.
Hey Chicken Little, put a sock in it okay? You’re annoying.If you want to live in your dark, negative world, go right ahead.
Below please find part of Perry vs. US -294 US 330, from 1935, a court case involving the debt instruments of the US, and whether they could be paid back in currency rather than gold.
5. By virtue of the power to borrow money "on the credit of the United States," Congress is authorized to pledge that credit as assurance of payment as stipulated -- as the highest assurance the Government can give -- its plighted faith. To say that Congress may withdraw or ignore that pledge is to assume that the Constitution contemplates a vain promise, a pledge having no other sanction than the pleasure and convenience of the pledgor. P. 294 U. S. 351.
6. When the United States, with constitutional authority, makes contracts, it has rights and incurs responsibilities similar to those of individuals who are parties to such instruments. P. 294 U. S. 352.
7. The right to make binding obligations is a power of sovereignty. P. 294 U. S. 353.
8. The sovereignty of the United States resides in the people, and Congress cannot invoke the sovereignty of the people to override their will as declared in the Constitution. P. 294 U. S. 353.
9. The power given Congress to borrow money on the credit of the United States is unqualified and vital to the Government, and the binding quality of the promise of the United States is of the essence of the credit pledged. P. 294 U. S. 353.
10. The fact that the United States may not be sued without its consent is a matter of procedure which does not affect the legality and binding character of its contracts. P. 294 U. S. 354.
11. Section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment, declaring that "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, . . . shall not be questioned," is confirmatory of a fundamental principle, applying as well to bonds issued after, as to those issued before, the adoption of the Amendment, and the expression "validity of the public debt " embraces whatever concerns the integrity of the public obligations. P. 294 U. S. 354.
Hope that helps.
It may be true, but the two are certainly linked, and there is the slight problem of every federal reserve note in existence being insufficient to pay off the debt to the federal reserve, it is in a sense similar to coal-companies that tried to pay workers in their own credits for the company store, which could be inflated to rates which made them functionally slaves. (I think there is a USSC ruling or two on the practice.)
The purpose of the clause. The Federal Reserve holds debt instruments of the United States, and does not normally create them.
Yes, it holds the debt instruments but IIUC charges their own fees and is functionally unaccountable to Congress which delegated that power to them -- it is certainly Congress's ability to incur debt, and to value currency, I am not disputing that. Though I would raise the question of the legitimacy of a system which delegates the power to someone else and denies that someone else to be held accountable (or to all the restrictions of the authorizing agency).
Further, there is the mention of Gold and Silver in the Constitution; the use of Federal Reserve Notes for a state making payment for anything seems like it would be contrary to the Constitution.
Art I, Section. 10.
No State shall [...] coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts [...]
And your problem with that is what, exactly?
donmeaker post #126: "I just explained where he was going without the fanciful conflation and fallacies."
OneWingedShark post #131: "Um, I'm sorry, but I did point out that they were conflations and fallacies."
OneWingedShark post #107, explaining opposition to the 14th Amendment:
I think donmeaker's explanation is simpler and more accurate.
Depending on your definition of "statism", it was either fathered by our Founders in the US Constitution, or by "Progressives" beginning 100+ years ago, especially the likes of Democrat President Woodrow Wilson.
President Lincoln did nothing more than defeat a military power which first started and then formally declared war on the United States.
Lincoln also insured that for the first time in its history the United States was a nation of all free men in the free states of our Free Republic.
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