Posted on 08/11/2011 1:48:27 PM PDT by Celerity
Thank you for taking the time to read my Vanity post.
A lot of people here, and in my face-to-face world, have mentioned that the mobs, riots and looting that is occuring around the world would take a different path here in the US, in areas where people are allowed to carry firearms, and use them in accordance with both laws and sensibility.
And it's the Sensibility portion of that I would like to discuss.
Everytime I measure and imagine (Simulations!) my response to violent flash mobs or rioters, I come up snake eyes. Here are two of such scenarios that I play out in my mind:
#1 I'm in my local convenience store, buying .. i dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes and gasoline. Suddenly the front door swings open and the place is rushed by 10 or more teens who are screaming, destroying the store and running out with items.
#2 I'm dropping off some things at the post office to mail out. Say, I dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes. An orchestrated attacks begins throughout my downtown area. 50, 100, 200 people start throwing rocks through windows, molotov cocktails, bricks, porn mags or stale cigarettes through store windows, setting fires or what-have-you.
We have heard around these parts how the outcome would be different were an armed populace involved. Well, "Here I am" . Now what ?
At what point in these events will it be both legal, and importantly: Prudent to present a firearm ? In the convenience store example, I have seen as few as 3 people cause so much ruckus that a knife was drawn and a kid was stabbed almost instantly. The kid didn't even know he was stabbed in the chaos. In the riot situation, Hiding or just leaving is the important decision, but are there scenarios that change that play ?
I see innocent people being hurt in riots all the time. But when is it time to draw a firearm and use it? I don't see the immediate danger to myself (Unless I'm the target of the protest, such as at a Union rally).
Help me connect some dots and make a correct decision.
Thanks !
-> Steve
Mary
If you are looking for instruction on when NOT to shoot, I would suggest taking courses from Massad Ayoob at www.massadayoob.com
Hes been at this nearly 40 years and has trained thousands in self defense.
I think if others are threatened physically, then you have an obligation to "draw and use". As long as all the "flash mobbers" are doing is stealing Twinkies and breaking windows, back off and shut up is the word, watchful and ready. Of course, the store owner might feel differently about it, but then "he" should have been armed, too. A pump shotgun can discourage large numbers of people.
Here is a good choice for the shop-keeper:
http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/preview-kel-tec-shotgun-ksg
this relatively new phenomenon is the best argument I can find for subcompact 9mm pistols like my glock 26 or the kel tec P-11 or the Beretta 9mm version of this type. Easily concealed and carries 10 or 11 rounds. I can carry two glock 19 mags in my front pockets that fit my 26 and increase me to about 34 extra rounds.
Always have an exit scouted out and if youre in a restaurant, sit with your back to the wall. Also DONT GO where theres likely to be trouble.
Then in regard to your statement “Never, ever pull a gun, rifle or weapon unless the situation necessitates its use AND you are willing to handle the consequences of that use”, the situation that “necessitates its use” could be one, such as a patrol, that doesn't necessarily necessitate its use by ultimately firing it, only by having it ready to fire at ultimate need.
Sometimes one draws and even points a weapon only because it might be necessary to fire it. The police do that all the time. Of course the legality of doing that as a regular citizen can be unfortunate.
“I am saying that one should NEVER pull a gun out... ever... under any circumstance... unless as a last resort... and then only if you are prepared to use it.”
Then you are implying if not outright saying “it’s better for a woman to be found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, than for her to be found in a police station explaining to the police how she scared off her attacker with a gun she wasn’t prepared to use to shoot him”.
If that’s what you believe, then that’s what you believe.
This is what ALaska law says about that issue...
AS 11.81.350. Justification: Use of Force in Defense of Property and Premises.
(b) A person may use deadly force upon another when and to the extent the person reasonably believes it necessary to terminate what the person reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission of arson upon a dwelling or occupied building.
In other words, don't pull that London crap up here in Alaska, especially when most of us are armed to the teeth.
LLS
Yes he did tell some lies after his crime, he also bandaged his arm and was claiming to have been in a tough shoot-out and physical hand to hand fight and being wounded by a bullet (all fake).
He also said while claiming war injuries (fake), ‘I killed a lot of people there, but I had to do it. I dream about it every night.’ Ersland said he got hurt there (Gulf War) and that was why he was wearing the medical back and front brace,” the detective reported.
The detective quoted Ersland as saying, “So, I have killed a number of people with a .50-caliber” and “I was a platoon leader from Fort Bragg.” The detective reported Ersland said he was in the Army until he got hurt and then the Air Force let him join because there was a high demand for pharmacists.
Ersland left the Army in February 1989, well before the Gulf War, records show. His first assignment after joining the Air Force was the Altus Air Force Base hospital.”
“Instead, Jerome Jay Ers-land spent the war in 1991 as the pharmacy chief at the military hospital at Altus Air Force Base in southwestern Oklahoma, records show.”
Legally, I can’t shoot someone to defend someone else’s property.
If I feel my life is in danger, I’ll shoot, but if it’s a swarm of people running out with cigarettes and Little Debbie snacks, I’m not shooting.
Molotov cocktails are a different story. IMHO, that’s a deadly weapon and a clear and present threat.
The one issue with mob violence is that you’re just one citizen with a handgun against a swarm of people. You may shoot a threat you can see while some other punk sucker punches you from behind.
Retreat to safety is always the best option.
Okay. From experience and training you know “it’s better for a woman to be found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, than for her to be found in a police station explaining to the police how she scared off her attacker with a gun she wasn’t prepared to use to shoot him”.
As to avoiding places and situations that could lead to rape, you can’t even stay home all the time and be sure of avoiding someone intending rape.
In another article it was reported that a kid was arrested and charged with a hate crime because he told the police he chose white people because they are an easy target.
I think if white people were not an easy target, they would run...unless they are armed. Then if you pull out your gun and don’t shoot, you will probably be on the receiving end.
Sooner or later some of the “kids” are going to get dead.
No, it won’t be worse than London here. If these mobs moved into other people’s neighborhoods to kill like they are in London, they would be killed by the police and if the police did or could not act, they would be killed by citizens. They would do damage, but unlike England, they would also be risking their own lives to do it.
The second scenario is the easiest. That’s an insurrection and you’re shooting at the goblins as part of the unorganized militia.
In the first scenario, legal will depend on where you live. Here in CA, you have the right to defend yourself if you are reasonably in fear of death or great bodily harm. And you have the right to carry a firearm openly. (Though, with some funny rules about the ammo.) You needn’t be in your home or business to exercise your right to self defense.
(YMMV)
LLS
Your sole goal is to protect your life and lives of your dependents. That’s it.
Your goal is NOT to stop the riot.
However, depending on how circumstances unfold, the former may cause the latter.
I’ve been saying for a while that there is a Bernhard Goetz moment coming somewhere with all of these violent flash mob situations that have been occurring in the last few months. It is only a matter of time.
Well, forget the multiple shots per attacker, you won’t have enough ammo.
Aim carefully for center mass, one per customer.
“Think what you want.”
OK
I think Rule number 1 is wrong (NEVER PULL A GUN UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO USE IT). It’s the “NEVER” part that is troubling (assuming “use it” means to shoot someone with it).
I think it is true that it is better for a woman “to be found in a police station explaining to the police how she scared off her attacker with a gun she wasn’t prepared to use to shoot him” than to be found raped and murdered by that attacker. (I can’t think of a circumstance in which that isn’t true and if you can, you haven’t presented it yet.)
I think that truth demonstrates the fallacy of Rule number 1.
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