Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The 1911 Sucks (Reasoned Argument)
yankeegunnuts.com ^ | 20 December, 2010 | GunNutmegger

Posted on 12/23/2010 5:29:16 AM PST by marktwain

I have said it before and I will end up saying it again: the 1911 an old design that is more trouble than it is worth. I don’t say it to be confrontational, or to draw attention to myself. I say it because I see my fellow shooters mindlessly parroting the gun equivalent of Chuck Norris Facts whenever the 1911 comes up in conversation, and I just don’t get it.

I am not surprised that the 1911 is out of place in today’s world, and you shouldn’t be surprised either. What other 100-year old design is still in daily use?

In the comment section of another blog, I summarized my skepticism of the 1911′s attributes thusly:

It’s a 100-year old design. It needs tools to disassemble. It has unreliable magazines. It is finicky about ammo. And, as a single-action pistol, it is unsafe for 95% of its users to carry.

In my original complaint, I forgot to mention the issue with slide-stop failures, and the whole internal extractor/external extractor situation. Either of which would be serious enough to kill any other design’s reputation in the shooting world.

In response to some knee-jerk defenses of the 1911 from fanboys who drank too much John M. Browning Kool-Aid, who told me how all that I needed to do was buy a bunch of aftermarket parts and send the gun to a gunsmith, I added:

Why does a reliable 1911 cost so much, and need so much gunsmithing?

To be fair, I have some of the same complaints with the Walther PPK. Which is also a very old design, one which has been eclipsed by more modern designs which can do everything it does better.

I mean, is it unreasonable to expect an affordably-priced pistol for defense to reliably feed hollowpoints out of the box? What Smith&Wesson pistol of recent manufacture won’t feed hollowpoints? What about Glock? SiG? Beretta? (I know Kahrs need to have some rounds through them before they are reliable, but it says that right in the owners manual). The shooting public would not accept an unreliable gun of a more modern design. But for some reason, the 1911 gets a pass for all of its flaws. “Just use hardball” is not a valid defense of the 1911 design, nor is it a valid strategy for selecting ammunition to defend yourself.

And God help anyone who buys a used 1911. Everyone and their brother seems to think they are qualified to take a Dremel to their 1911. Guys who can’t change their own flat tire somehow have no reservations about playing doctor on their 1911. Who knows what wacky “custom” parts have been put into the gun because someone read about it on the interweb tubes?

It was the best military sidearm of its day, and for a long time afterward. I do not dispute that. But its time has long passed. And a military sidearm is not the same thing as a handgun for personal defense.

Leave aside the lack of reliability with hollowpoints, and the other problems. The 1911 is too big to conceal. And the smaller versions are less reliable due to the shorter slide-travel and a tendency to limp-wrist the gun.

Some people protest by saying that the 1911 is the best gun for defense, because the most “realistic” shooting sports are heavily populated with 1911 users. And everyone knows that you should train like you fight, so that you will fight like you train, right? Well, that would be a more convincing argument if those “realistic” shooting sports didn’t have intricate rules that somehow disqualify most non-1911 designs. Purely by coincidence, right? Sure, they come up with semi-plausible rationales for some of those rules, but there is no way to disguise the overall bias towards the 1911.

I don’t hate 1911 fans. I merely pity them, because they are victims of marketing hype and groupthink, the lemmings of the gun world. And if someone sinks thousands of dollars into a 1911 (and isn’t using it to compete for money), well they are just gullible. Like the kind of people who pay money for tapwater in a bottle.

So what if Jeff Cooper liked the only handgun in use when he was in the military? It’s not like he had a choice of other handguns to use. And, on a related note, Jeff Cooper has a reputation that exceeds his accomplishments. The best information that I can find shows that he spent the battle of Guadalcanal as the training officer on Gen. Vandegrift’s staff. Not leading a platoon. Not on the line, pulling a trigger. And his coy evasions when asked about his real-world experience with gunfighting are revealing, if one cares to view them objectively. (If you have documentation about Cooper’s real-world experience, please drop me a line. I am happy to revise my opinion.) I have no doubt that he was qualified to teach people how to shoot on a range. Beyond that, a grain of salt is required. I prefer to get my advice on defense & gunfighting from men who have actually been there & done that; Massad Ayoob, Jim Cirillo, etc. Am I a qualifications snob? No, I am an results snob.

Ok, got it out of my system.


TOPICS: Education; History; Hobbies; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: 1911; banglist; ccw; gun
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 221-233 next last
To: OKSooner

The .38 proved inadequate to stop sword wielding Philippine (Moro) muslims run amok hopped up on drugs and/or religious jihadi fever.

The 1911 was designed to fix this problem.


41 posted on 12/23/2010 6:05:25 AM PST by null and void (We are now in day 700 of our national holiday from reality. - 0bama really isn't one of US.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: triumphant values
Winchester Model 12 (only 98 years old, but close enough). Also a John Browing design. I'm sure there's more.

I have my great-grandfather's Winchester Model 12...looked up the serial number and turns out its manufacture date was 1928. Took it skeet shooting earlier this year and I must say, I did pretty well with it. That thing will tear up your shoulder though, that's for sure!

42 posted on 12/23/2010 6:06:18 AM PST by Zeppelin (Keep on FReepin' on...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

“What other 100-year old design is still in daily use? “

I’m going hunting in ten minutes, with my 98 Mauser.


43 posted on 12/23/2010 6:06:36 AM PST by eartrumpet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

What other 100-year old design is still in daily use

Well The Bible is still used daily and it is slightly older then 100 years.........
Owned a 1911 some years back and found it to be a dependable quality shooter.


44 posted on 12/23/2010 6:07:51 AM PST by SECURE AMERICA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain
Well....I do agree with his comments about Jeff Cooper. (I did 2 Gunsite sessions back in the '80s - I thought it a little 'cultish')
But other than that part, well, the guy is entitled to his opinion. Doesn't make it valid though.
45 posted on 12/23/2010 6:11:57 AM PST by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus - Domari Nolo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Leisler
not being an m16 fan, I can see not carrying all the weight of the m14... the m14 is definitely a powerhouse in comparison.

I see that a bunch of old m14s are being dusted off for the sandbox as they shoot through things....like car doors.

my only weapon carrying experience is hunting and the older I get, the lighter a firearm I require to make it up those damn hills. and like I say, I can see carrying a lighter weapon and being able to carry more ammo to boot...and I understand the M16s are more reliable than one they first came out

46 posted on 12/23/2010 6:14:26 AM PST by Vaquero ("an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Squantos; archy

What say you?

I, for one, prefer the 1911 type over double action designs I have tried.


47 posted on 12/23/2010 6:16:56 AM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: OKSooner
During the Phillipine Insurrection, the then issued Colt 38 Long was deemed inefficient in stopping the fanatical Moros(Muslim).

By wrapping themselves tightly in bamboo cord(to staunch bloodflow) and taking depressive drugs to deaden the nerves, they would attack in droves, dying only when they were either shot so full of holes they bled out or hit with something effective, like a shotgun.

There were so many failures of the .38 Long as a defensive caliber, that the call went out for refurbished 1873 Colt SAA in 45 caliber to be issued. The Army put out criteria for the next generation sidearm to be of 'caliber no less than 45'

48 posted on 12/23/2010 6:17:03 AM PST by Wizdum
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

>>What other 100-year old design is still in daily use?

The Ma Deuce, another work of the mind of John Moses Browning. <*genuflects*> Well, 90 or so years, but close enough.

And I’m not even a 1911 fan.


49 posted on 12/23/2010 6:17:26 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

It saved my ass several times one day, and I know it can still do that. Good ‘nuff for me.


50 posted on 12/23/2010 6:17:35 AM PST by Rannug (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-qH02g4DLI)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain
To be fair, I have some of the same complaints with the Walther PPK. Which is also a very old design, one which has been eclipsed by more modern designs which can do everything it does better.

I have a 1911 and a Makarov (PPK copy) (among others)and they both work great. The Makarov, with it's fixed barrel, is extreamly accurate. On a par with my Ruger 22/45.

51 posted on 12/23/2010 6:18:44 AM PST by CPOSharky (They ain't illegals. They're just ungegistered democrats.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

I’ve never liked the 1911.

The 1911 sure as hell was a great handgun for decades, going back to when it was first produced, but there are far better designed automatic handguns out there right now.


52 posted on 12/23/2010 6:19:22 AM PST by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Blueflag

Not a 1911 fan anymore, but I have to agree.

Just like the AR/<-16/M-4, the magazines cause 99% of the problems.


53 posted on 12/23/2010 6:21:46 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: marktwain

Big Jake’s son used one when the Duke and son went into Mexico to kill paladin so they could save his grandson, and the Duke could go back and jump on Maureen O’Hara.{That’s the whole movie in two lines}.


54 posted on 12/23/2010 6:25:06 AM PST by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorist savages, in honor of Standing Wolf.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: KoRn

I can only say this to anyone who owns or buys a 1911, the aficionados already know this so you guys can add your comments.

Get a catalog from www.brownells.com.

There is page after page after page of aftermarket custom parts for the 1911, many times more in either bling or performance than any other pistol made, really its an excellant platform to custom build.

Like buying a Harley, it runs but can run way better with a few tweeks and moolah.


55 posted on 12/23/2010 6:25:23 AM PST by Eye of Unk (If your enemy is quick to anger, seek to irritate him. Sun Tzu, The Art of War.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Mojo
I am not surprised that the 1911 is out of place in today’s world, and you shouldn’t be surprised either. What other 100-year old design is still in daily use?

My DA revolver.

If one wanted to get technical, you can also count the thousands of Civil War era Colt and Remington black powder replica revolvers that are used in shooting matches on a regular basis by Cowboy Action shooyers. These are 150 year old designs.

56 posted on 12/23/2010 6:27:26 AM PST by Inyo-Mono (Had God not driven man from the Garden of Eden the Sierra Club surely would have.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: marktwain
What other 100-year old design is still in daily use?

Well...there's this one...

57 posted on 12/23/2010 6:27:36 AM PST by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus - Domari Nolo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: edpc

Rock islands work just fine.


58 posted on 12/23/2010 6:28:14 AM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: edpc
My first 1911 was and is a “mil-spec” Norinco 1911A1. It is the one I have fired most over time and it alases works.

I was invited to shoot steel run-and-gun some time back and it did have some trouble after about 150 rounds. I blame dirty off-brand ammo because after I cleaned it I fire 50 rounds with no trouble, and that has never happened again. Even at that, I don't expect a 150 round gun fight anytime soon...{:0)

Newer Colt and Kimber specimens seem to be as good and better, but I don't have the same run time on those as the old reliable knock off.

59 posted on 12/23/2010 6:29:59 AM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: MileHi

alases = always


60 posted on 12/23/2010 6:35:17 AM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 221-233 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson