Posted on 11/30/2010 11:57:36 AM PST by Hotlanta Mike
GOP Rep. Mike Pence spoke at the Detroit Economic Club today, and came out fully in favor of the Flat Tax, and called for the United States to abandon “Keynsian spending,” and return to “the practice of free market economics”:
(Excerpt) Read more at freedomslighthouse.net ...
“The Flat tax has been tried in American history a total of 6 times starting with the very first tax code in 1913 after the 16th amendment was ratified.”
Continuing to say that will not make it true. When taxes are levied at different percentages, as you have cited, it is not a flat tax. It is a progressive tax.
You do not understand the flat tax. This might help;
http://biggovernment.com/dmitchell/2010/03/29/the-flat-tax-good-for-america-bad-for-washington/
and there are many other sites.
Mr. Pence and I happen to agree that a FLAT tax (the same rate applying to all) is the best way to go to rid ourselves of the parasites and stop soaking the rich.
And I could not agree more that progressive taxes such as those about which you speak are unacceptable, but we need to start with a logical premise to have this discussion.
Either you refuse to do so because you do not want a discussion or you do not understand the difference between a flat tax and a progressive tax.
You sir, are dead wrong. We have not had and never have had a flat tax. We have always had a progressive tax - more taxes are paid by the rich as a percentage. Which, of course, is unfair. Flat means equal. Equal means fair.
There have been about 6 sponsors in Congress for the Flat tax. There have been as many as 75 sponsors in Congress for the FairTax.
That’s 75 to 6. The Flat tax has no future because it is not a solution and will fail by weight of the 16th Amendment.
I know the flat tax because I was once a flat tax supporter. But that was before I was aware of how Congress can change tax code using tax authority under the 16th Amendment.
Yes it has been tried 6 times in American history; first at 7% and 1%, and now some fellow named Paul Ryan that Wisconsiners tell us is a young genius is touting a simplfied code of 10% and 25%.
You can try and say that a two tiered income tax is not a flat tax but you will get nowhere past the 6 or so sponsors in Congress with it. The flat tax can and will be amended to tax others at a higher income bracket at a higher rate and then it will grow so that in 10 to 15 years there will be many many brackets, and it won’t be flat anymore.
I’ll say again you can argue semantics but you can’t argue how you’re going to write legislation that prevents a future Congress from changing and amending your Flat tax so that it is no longer flat. You can’t do it because they have the power under the 16th Amendment to change the tax code, to create another bracket for the upper incomes, and so on until years later they have a bracketed ‘flat tax’ just as exists today.
One more time, how are you going to stop a future Congress from changing and passing amendments to create more brackets to your flat tax code?
“One more time, how are you going to stop a future Congress from changing and passing amendments to create more brackets to your flat tax code?”
One last time. I do not have an opinion on what might be. If you had asked me three years ago what my reaction to Obama as President, I would have said, of course, “who?”
Arguments based on what might happen are impossible to resolve ... but you knew that.
We have never had a flat tax.
We should try it.
Saying it won’t work is not an argument or a point. It is simple speculation and opinion based on no history and no good reasoning.
Let me ask you, since you are knowledgeable about this.
Are there any countries that use a flat tax?
How are they doing?
When a billionaire buys something at the store, he pays the SAME PERCENTAGE of sales tax!!
You are evading the issue. There have been several very simple 2-tiered tax rates that many Americans in generations past have called a simple flat tax.
The issue you are evading is that you have not explained how a new Congress 2 or 4 years out is not going to introduce an amendment to set a higher rate for upper income earners in order to be ‘fair’, so that your flat tax will be a 2-tiered tax structure on its way to becoming a multi-tiered bracketed tax structure.
You are nuts to think that past Americans having fought for a simpler income tax at only 2 brackets were foolish enough to think it was not a flat tax. It was a very flat tax, and yet all those reforms failed.
Even if in 1913 they had one rate 7%, what makes you think they would not have made another bracket for the super rich? And then years later added yet another bracket and so on.
Once again, how does your flat tax stop the next Congress from adding another bracket?
The answer is simple, it doesn’t because it can’t.
To ignore history and say we never tried it before is irrational. The previous 2-tiered tax rates were expanded into a hundred or so brackets.
What makes you think your flat 1-tier tax rate won’t be expanded to 2? 3? Hasn’t happened before?
Let’s repeat:
The original income tax code in 1913 had 2 brackets:
1% \
—> many many tax brackets through 5 major reforms
7# /
Your flat tax starts at :
X% —> many many tax brackets
What is to prevent the above? Why do you say it hasn’t happened when clearly it has with a simple 2-tiered system? You think it won’t happen with a 1-tier system? You’re nuts! Human nature says if pols can do it they will do it!
What prevents future pols from creating more brackets? Answer: Nothing!
What CAN prevent pols from creating many brackets is repealing the 16th and replacing the Income tax code with the FairTax code of tax collection and enforcement.
The Flat tax as a design is flawed. It will never stay flat.
The Flat tax as a political issue for 2012 is DOA.
You are evading the issue. There have been several very simple 2-tiered tax rates that many Americans in generations past have called a simple flat tax.”
Just simply not true. There has never been a flat tax. Simply not true. You are fantasizing and projecting into the future. I don’t think this is worth pursuing. Give my regards to Cleopatra and Nostradamus when you see them.
I wouldn’t mind having Pence as POTUS, but it’s very difficult to win any race for President from the House of Representatives. I would be very surprised, if Pence doesn’t run for Indiana Governor in ‘12, instead. He was or is leaning more towards a run for Governor, unless he has changed his mind. It’s much easier to win a Presidential race as a former Governor than as a former House Representative, and Pence is smart enough to knows this.
Pence major weaknesses in any run for POTUS are his running for POTUS from the House of Representatives and Pence’s past views on illegal immigration issues. Pence has been “squishy” on illegal immigration issues, and he might, still, be “squishy” on illegal immigration issues, today.
You know there is nothing quite as revolting as an ignoramus that consumes their own puke.
1. 1861 A flat tax was imposed on incomes.
2. 1867 After 4 alterations of the 1861 flat income tax to a progressive tax, the income tax was altered back to a flat rate.
3. http://www.loc.gov/rr/business/hottopic/irs_history.html
In 1894 Congress enacted a flat rate Federal income tax.
4. Each of the preceding income taxes were challenged as unconstitutional but nevertheless they were imposed for awhile on American incomes.
5. 1913 The original income tax imposed a flat rate of 1% on more than 98% of all incomes.
You can argue that the 1913 income tax was not flat but more than 98% of all American wage earners had the same rate and it is likely they would have said it was flat.
Each of the 5 major tax reforms that came after the 1913 income tax made the tax rates flatter.
The point of this discussion is that each flat tax or flattened tax reform, all gave way to an alteration to a progressive tax structure.
It is a fact that there will always be those that push for a progressive tax structure. The 16th Amendment enables these people to lay and collect taxes on incomes from whatever source derived without apportionment. That means Congress can single out any group of earners and lay a tax on their income bracket, hence a progressive tax.
The 16th allows both a Flat and a Progressive Tax. Without the 16th, both would be unconstitutional. The FairTax is constitutional regardless if the 16th is repealed or not.
Pence's flat tax is not new, is not a solution and will not stay flat.
The idea that one person has to work for the Government while another does not is not Equal Protection, it is Indentured Servitude.
10% bracket = work 5 weeks a year for the Gubmint.
35% bracket = work 17 weeks a year for the Gubmint.
So much for that Fair Share Clintonian crap.
“You know there is nothing quite as revolting as an ignoramus that consumes their own puke.”
You can’t be serious, dog breath. Yeah, let’s count the civil war years, pre-1900 and a non-flat flat tax and your fervid imagination. Grow up. Nice to see you can find Wikipedia, though. You are a dope.
Keep arguing that it can’t work because ... well, it just can’t ... because ... well ... it won’t work.
Learn that at fantasy debate camp? I’ll bet you were a master.
You said there was never a flat tax and you were shown to be flat out wrong.
I suggest you retract your bellicose nonsense and smarten yourself up about real tax reform:
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq
“You said there was never a flat tax and you were shown to be flat out wrong.”
Yes, and that was a good job you did, digging up the non-flat flat tax example and the Civil War taxes. Hmmmmmpppphhhhh...... Now go tell Mommy you should have a cookie.
Flatten a cow pie and it’s still a cow pie.
Pence disappoints.
The GOP is so utterly bereft of real principled vision and leadership that it isn’t funny.
The 1861 income tax was a flat tax that was changed 4 times within a few years to a progressive structure and then changed back to a flat tax in 1867. The tax expired in 1872 and another flat tax structure was put in place in 1894.
The 1913 income tax was a flat tax of 1% for more than 98% of the population. That tax was and is considered a flat tax by most every tax historian and tax economist.
So don’t think for a minute that the United States never had a flat tax.
The point you keep your head in the sand about,and that history clearly shows, is that there are progressives that stand ready to turn any flat tax into a progressive tax as soon as they can and they will.
Let’s repeat the last statement, if a flat tax or a FairTax is ever enacted, there are ***today*** lobbyists, individuals and organizations that stand ready to get to work to restructure the tax code to a progressive tax structure. These people exist and are known personally today, they have said they will work around the clock to get and keep a progressive income tax. The flat tax poses no obstacle for them. The FairTax does pose obstacles for them.
The only way to set these proponents of a progressive income tax back and keep them shutdown is to repeal the 16th Amendment and even then they will attempt to argue that income taxes can be applied without the need for apportionment.
The bottomline is that a flat tax has not stayed flat in history and will not stay flat if ever made in the future.
When you decide to get smart, the following FAQ will make you wiser:
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq
I think at one time there was a flat tax. The rate was set at 0%.
Let me tell you a little something about the flat tax and the FAIRTAX:
1. Our CURRENT tax system started out as a FLAT tax (see “Revenue Act of 1861”)
2. Our current tax system is nowhere near flat - anymore.
3. All the flat tax would do is return us to the same system we started out with. In 100 years we would be right back where we are now. Is that what we want for our grand-kids and their grad-kids?
4. The flat tax retains the IRS - the FAIRTAX eliminates it.
5. The flat tax gives politicians the ability to lobby to include/exclude specific products - The FAIRTAX is “fair” because ALL NEW GOODS and SERVICES at the retail level would be taxed the exact same rate at the register: 23%
5. The flat tax does not promote business ownership - the FAIRTAX eliminates the tax burden that businesses currently have to deal with.
6. the flat tax DOES NOT address Social Security or Medicare contributions - the FAIRTAX eliminates the payroll tax (both YOUR share AND your employer’s share - the entire 15.3%)
7. The flat tax is still an INCOME tax, which means that you will still have to file an annual tax return - the FAIRTAX ELIMINATES all personal and corporate INCOME taxes, so there will NEVER be another “tax return day”, meaning April 15th will be just another day.
8. The flat tax PUNISHES US exports by taxing them - the FAIRTAX encourages US exports by removing the tax burden. This allows our “Made in the USA” goods to compete on a global market.
9. The flat tax discourages home ownership by ADDING 17% to ALL home purchases - the FAIRTAX facilitates home ownership by a) Eliminating taxes from USED homes, and b) removing embedded taxes from the home building processes.
10. Flat Tax System - 24.65% (inclusive including FICA social security tax) = 32.5% (exclusive rate )
=17% (inclusive withholding income tax rate) + 7.65% separate inclusive FICA Social Security tax rate
= 24.65% total inclusive tax rate (converts to 32.5% exclusive rate) under the current Flat Tax proposal.
FAIRTAX System - 23% (inclusive rate includes FICA) = 30% sales tax (exclusive sales rate includes FICA)
on consumption of NEW Goods & Services ONLY at the point of end use retail only.
11. The flat tax tax payer base DOES NOT include the underground economy, illegal aliens, and tourists - the FAIRTAX taxes drug dealers, illegal aliens, prostitutes, and other underground workers at the register.
12. The flat tax taxes the poor the same as it taxes the rich, meaning that the poor will actually pay out a higher percentage of their income to taxes - the FAIRTAX provides EVERY LEGAL US CITIZEN with a monthly prebate check to UNTAX their necessities up to the National Poverty Level.
CONCLUSION: The flat tax is not worth supporting - the FAIRTAX will encourage growth in American Business and the American Economy.
UNDERSTAND IT AND YOU WILL DEMAND IT!!!
The Flat tax is a lie supported by those who like the status quo. The current income tax is a power grab by government from the people. Repealing the 16th Amendment is a MUST for the guaranteed future of this country and our own economic security. The 16th Amendment was able to be enacted because the poor and the middle class were led to believe that it would never effect them. It has been the ammunition of class warfare ever since. This MUST change. This has gone on long enough. The Fair Tax is easily demagogued, but imagine trying to convince a country that has that plan in place that changing to a regressive oppressive slavemongering income tax would be better!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.