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Proof the Founders knew & accepted Vattel`s "naturels" to mean "natural born" (re:Obama eligibility)
puzo1.blogspot.com ^ | 10/08/2010 | Teo the Bear

Posted on 10/09/2010 12:21:49 AM PDT by rxsid

"Absolute proof the Founders knew and accepted Vattel`s French "naturels" to mean "natural born"

by: Teo the Bear @ http://www.thebirthers.org

Found in the Library of Congress Website

If you look at Article III in the body of the text below, you will see,

Les consuls et vice consuls respectifs ne pourront être pris que parmi les sujets naturels de la puissance qui les nommera. Tous seront appointés par leur souverain respectif, et ils ne pourront en conséquence faire aucun trafic ou commerce quelconque ni pour leur propre compte, ni pour le compte d'autrui.
Going down further to the end you will find under number 3,
The respective Consuls and Vice Consuls shall only be taken from among the natural born subjects of the power nominating them. They shall all be appointed by their respective Sovereign, and in Consequence of such appointment they shall not exercise any traffic or commerce whatsoever either on their own account, or on account of any other

Translation by Charles Thomson secretary of the Continental Congress

This is pretty convincing proof that the framers did not need to wait for the 1797 translated edition of Vattel's Law of Nations. It appears they were well apt to translate it themselves. This accepted translation of 'naturel' in 1781, predates John Jay's 1787 letter to George Washington by 6 years.

[Note by CDR K: This 'naturels' means 'natural born' translation in 1781 was subsequently confirmed by the 1797 translation of the part of the relevant sentence and paragraph in Vattel's Law of Nation, Vol.1, Chapter 19, Section 212, that is, "natural-born Citizens, are those born in the country, to parents who are citizens". Thus when the founders and framers wrote the Constitution in 1787 they clearly knew what "natural born Citizen" meant when they upgraded the Citizenship requirement in Article II from simply being a "born Citizen" as proposed by Hamilton to that of being a "natural born Citizen" as recommended by Jay as a strong check against foreign influence on the persons in the future who would be President and Commander of the military. And that meaning was understood to be a person born in the country to parents who are Citizens of the country. Such a person has sole allegiance and unity of citizenship at birth to only the United States. That was the intent of the founders and framers for that legal term of art, natural born Citizen, in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution. This restriction on the type of Citizen who could be President was a national security issue to them back then and it is still a national security issue to us now.]

http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/10/absoloute-proof-founding-fathers-knew.html


TOPICS: Government; History; Military/Veterans; Politics
KEYWORDS: apuzzo; birthcertificate; certifigate; eligibility; naturalborncitizen; obama; vattel
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How can a USURPER command our armed forces?
How can a USURPER make appointments to the Supreme Court?
How can a USURPER sign any treaties with foreign governments?
How can a USURPER sign anything into law, let alone the health care monstrosity?

HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN?

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.
http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html

Factcheck.org goes on to say this about Obama Sr., Jr. and the British Nationality Act of 1948:

In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html

 

Even the modern day State Department rules discusses the problems associated with dual citizenship:

7 FAM 081: U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality:

(e)While recognizing the existence of dual nationality, the U.S. Government does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Dual nationality may hamper efforts by the U.S. Government to provide diplomatic and consular protection to individuals overseas. When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.

...

the U.S. Supreme Court has stated that dual nationality is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both." See Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717 (1952).

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86563.pdf

So, back to the question: "HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN?"
It can't. Of course not. Yet, right there, on his campaign web site F.T.S., it's stated that a foreign government "governed" Barry from birth and the reason it did, was that Barry inherited that foreign citizenship by way of his foreign national father (no matter where he was born), a fact backed up by Factcheck.org. Assuming, of course, that Sr. was his legal father at birth.
How, then, could he possibly be a "Natural Born Citizen" of the U.S.?
Barry Soetoro, the divided citizen at birth!

Barack Obama a/k/a Barry Soetoro * NOT Obama / Soetoro
* This assumes HI birth, which is yet to be verified.
A citizen of 2 countries at birth.
http://www.jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com

Furthermore:  Hawaii's Territorial Law, Chapter 57 - "VITAL STATISTICS, I", shown beginning pg 23 of 29, (the law in effect in 1961) allowed the parents (or grandparents or other relative) of baby's born anywhere in the world to be eligible to apply for a Hawaiian birth certificate. A mailed-in form (without mention of a hospital, doctor, or midwife) signed by one of his grandparents (who forged the parent signature(s)) would have been enough to set up a birth record and a birth certificate at the Dept of Health. The Dept of Health would (presumably) then have automatically sent the names of the parents, their address as given on the mailed-in form , the gender of the child, and the date of birth to the Honolulu Advertiser and Star-Bulletin. The address given for the parents in the newspaper announcements is actually, however, the August 1961 home address of Obama’s maternal grandparents Stanley and Madelyn Dunham [6085 Kalanianaole Highway], and not the 1961 home address of Barack Obama, Sr. [625 11th Ave].).

Bottom line: Even IF (big IF) he was born in HI, he inherited his father's foreign citizenship as well, making him a US citizen by US law and a subject to the crown of her majesty the Queen of England by inheritance, birthright and England's law. He could not be considered a Natural Born Citizen as known by and as intended by the framers.
 

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What follows, is a bit of information with regards to the Constitutional term "Natural Born Citizen" (specifically) and NOT about the entire makeup, functions, origins and influences that made/make up our form of government, a Constitutional Republic. Clearly, the framers relied upon many different sources to create our new form of government.

Who, or "what" constituted a natural born citizen was well known to the framers. Jay would not have made such a suggestion to the others (Washington & the rest of those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention) unless there was a clear understanding of what that term meant. The definition comes from a source that not only were the framers familiar with, but the founders (many who were both) as well. And yes, even though many could not speak French, most read French (except, notably, Washington who would defer to Jefferson when such interpretation was needed).
 
NBC in the Constitutional drafts:

June 18th, 1787 - Alexander Hamilton suggests that the requirement be added, as: "No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States." Works of Alexander Hamilton (page 407).

July 25, 1787 (~5 weeks later) - John Jay writes a letter to General Washington (president of the Constitutional Convention): "Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen." [the word born is underlined in Jay's letter which signifies the importance of allegiance from birth.]
http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28fr00379%29%29:

September 2nd, 1787 George Washington pens a letter to John Jay. The last line reads: "I thank you for the hints contained in your letter"
http://www.consource.org/index.asp?bid=582&fid=600&documentid=71483

September 4th, 1787 (~6 weeks after Jay's letter and just 2 days after Washington wrote back to Jay) - The "Natural Born Citizen" requirement is now found in their drafts. Madison's notes of the Convention
The proposal passed unanimously without debate.

 

Original French version of Vattel's Law of Nations:

Emer de Vattel, Le droit des gens, ou Principes de la loi naturelle, vol. 1 (of 2) [1758]

From Chapter XIX, 212 (page 248 of 592):
Title in French: "Des citoyens et naturels"
To English: "Citizens and natural"

French text (about citizens): "Les citoyens sont les membres de la societe civile : lies a cette societe par certains devoirs et soumis a son autorite, ils participent avec egalite a ses avantages."
-------------------
To English: "The citizens are the members of the civil society: linked to this society by certain duties and subject to its authority, they participate with equality has its advantages."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
French text (about "natural" born citizens): "Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens"
-------------------
To English, gives this: "the natural, or indigenous, are those born in the country, parents who are citizens"

A detailed, historical, etymology of the term "Natural Born Citizen" can be found here: http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm

Prior to the Constitution

--- NEWLY ADDED ---
Doctor Benjamin Franklin writes to M. Dumas, Philadelphia, December 19, 1775 (An example of just how important Vattel's "Law of Nations was to the founders)
I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel, It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising State make it necessary frequently to consult the law of nations. Accordingly, that copy which I kept (after depositing one in our own publick library here, and sending the other to the College of Massachusetts-Bay, as you directed) has been continually in the hands of the members of our Congress now sitting, who are much pleased with your notes and preface, and have entertained a high and just esteem for their author.
--- END NEWLY ADDED ---

"This 1758 work by Swiss legal philosopher Emmerich de Vattel is of special importance to scholars of constitutional history and law, for it was read by many of the Founders of the United States of America, and informed their understanding of the principles of law which became established in the Constitution of 1787. Chitty's notes and the appended commentaries by Edward D. Ingraham, used in lectures at William and Mary College, provide a valuable perspective on Vattel's exposition from the viewpoint of American jurists who had adapted those principles to the American legal experience."

Vattel's Law of Nations, built upon "natural law - which has it's roots in ancient Greece, was influenced by Leibniz.
Even Blackstone affirmed the basis of natural law:
"This law of nature, being co-eval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original” (1979, 41). In this passage, Blackstone articulates the two claims that constitute the theoretical core of conceptual naturalism: 1) there can be no legally valid standards that conflict with the natural law; and 2) all valid laws derive what force and authority they have from the natural law."

Thomas Jefferson (for one example) had the 1758 version as well as a 1775 version in his own library:
Thomas Jefferson's Library: A Catalog with the Entries in His Own Order (under a section he titled "Ethics. Law of Nature and Nations."

--- NEWLY ADDED ---
John Jay, President of the Continental Congress from 1778 to 1779 and, from 1789 to 1795, the first Chief Justice of the United States, leading opponent of slavery and the founder who wrote to George Washington regarding the suggestion that the POTUS be a NBC , had Vattel in his home library:
"One division [Of the library in Jay's "Bedford House"] contains the favorite authors of the Chief Justice, weighty folios of Grotius, Puffendorf, Vattel and other masters of the science of international law, standard theological and miscellaneous works and the classic authors of antiquity. Pg. 108. "
--- END NEWLY ADDED ---

In AUTOBIOGRAPHY by Thomas Jefferson, he states: "On the 1st of June 1779. I was appointed Governor of the Commonwealth and retired from the legislature. Being elected also one of the Visitors of Wm. & Mary college, a self-electing body, I effected, during my residence in Williamsburg that year, a change in the organization of that institution by abolishing the Grammar school, and the two professorships of Divinity & Oriental languages, and substituting a professorship of Law & Police, one of Anatomy Medicine and Chemistry, and one of Modern languages; and the charter confining us to six professorships, we added the law of Nature & Nations..." This was 8 years prior the the writing of the Constitution! [See the "Law of Nature & Nations" section of his personal library to get an idea of what he included in this curriculum in America's 1st law school].
Note: Vattel, is one of only 10 "footnotes" in Jefferson's Biography, from Yale.

Prior to Jay's famous letter to those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention, we see (one of many exchanges between the founders) a letter from Madison ("father" of the Constitution) to Jay:

"James Madison, as a member of the Continental Congress in 1780, drafted the instructions sent to John Jay, for negotiating a treaty with Spain, which quotes at length from The Law of Nations. Jay complained that this letter, which was probably read by the Spanish government, was not in code, and "Vattel's Law of Nations, which I found quoted in a letter from Congress, is prohibited here.[29]"
From: Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness. How the Natural Law concept of G.W. Leibniz Inspired America's Founding Fathers.

The concepts of "natural law" and the phrase "Laws of Nature" (of which Law of Nations is built upon) are found within the Declaration of Independence itself:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Those (& others) are clearly NOT derived from English law, but rather from natural law concepts (which can be found in Vattel's Law of Nations).

The Constitution

The concepts of "natural law" continued in the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union

...

Article 1. section 8, clause 10:

"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations"

Again, those phrases are not from England's common law, but rather from natural law and even mention Vattel's book by name, "Law of Nations."

--- NEWLY ADDED ---
James Madison wrote to George Washington, N. York Octr. 18. 1787:
"Since the Revolution every State has made great inroads & with great propriety in many instances on this monarchical code.[Edit: Englands "Common Law"] The "revisal of the laws" by a Committe of wch. Col. Mason was a member, though not an acting one, abounds with such innovations. The abolition of the right of primogeniture, which I am sure Col. Mason does not disapprove, falls under this head.. What could the Convention have done? If they had in general terms declared the Common law to be in force, they would have broken in upon the legal Code of every State in the most material points: they wd. have done more, they would have brought over from G.B. a thousand heterogeneous & anti-republican doctrines, and even the ecclesiastical Hierarchy itself, for that is a part of the Common law."

George Mason, In Convention, Richmond (Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution), Wednesday, June 18, 1788:
"We have it in our power to secure our liberties and happiness on the most unshaken, firm, and permanent basis. We can establish what government we please. But by that paper we are consolidating the United States into one great government, and trusting to constructive security. You will find no such thing in the English government. The common law of England is not the common law of these states."

Why natural law, Vattel vs English common law, Blackstone: "The English common law provided that an alien naturalized is “to all intents and purposes a natural born subject.” Co. Litt. 129 (quoted and cited in Rhodes, 27 F.Cass. at 790). With such recognition, a naturalized citizen would have been eligible to be President of the new Republic."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/08/law-of-nations-and-not-english-common.html

--- END NEWLY ADDED ---

After the Constitution is ratified

--- NEWLY ADDED ---
On April 30, 1789, George Washington took the oath of office as President of the United States from the balcony of Federal Hall in New York City. The President and Congress shared space in Federal Hall with the New York Society Library.
On October 5, 1789, President George Washington checked out two books from the New York Society Library, one of which was Emmerich de Vattel’s "Law of Nations."
--- END NEWLY ADDED ---

Founder and Historian David Ramsay Defines a Natural Born Citizen in 1789.
David Ramsay (April 2, 1749 to May 8, 1815) was an American physician, patriot, and historian from South Carolina and a delegate from that state to the Continental Congress in 1782-1783 and 1785-1786. He was the Acting President of the United States in Congress Assembled. He was one of the American Revolution’s first major historians. A contemporary of Washington, Ramsay writes with the knowledge and insights one acquires only by being personally involved in the events of the Founding period.

Ramsay reaffirms the definition a Natural Born Citizen (born in country, to citizen parents (plural)) in 1789 A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen (1789)

The Naturalization Act of 1790, which states (in relevant part) "that the children of citizens [plural] of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens"

Of course, the Act of 1790 was repealed by the Act of 1795 (which did NOT attempt to define or extend the definition for NBC). What the 1st Congress had tried to do in 1790 was to EXTEND the known definition (of born in country to citizen parentS) to those born outside of sovereign territory, to citizen parentS. Of course, they can't do that. Congress (by itself) doesn't have the Constitutional authority to define (or EXTEND) the Constitutional term "Natural Born Citizen." Only a SCOTUS decision on the intent of the framers, or an amendment to the Constitution can do that.

The same definition was referenced in the dicta of many early SCOTUS cases as well...some examples:

"THE VENUS, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (A case on citizenship and domicile. Marshall, C.J. concurring) (cites Vattel six (6) times by name, and "law of nations" ten (10) times.)
"Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says
"The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.""

SHANKS V. DUPONT, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel)
MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U.S.162,167-168 ( 1875) (same definition without citing Vattel)
EX PARTE REYNOLDS, 1879, 5 Dill., 394, 402 (same definition and cites Vattel)
UNITED STATES V WARD, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D. Cal. 1890) (same definition and cites Vattel.)"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17519578/Kerchner-v-Obama-Congress-DOC-34-Plaintiffs-Brief-Opposing-Defendants-Motion-to-Dismiss

The New Englander, Volume 3 (1845) states: "The expression ‘citizen of the United States occurs in the clauses prescribing qualifications for Representatives, for Senators, and for President. In the latter, the term ‘natural born citizen’ is used and excludes all persons owing allegiance by birth to foreign states."
Note: the "New Englander" was NOT a student law review. The first student law review appeared 30 years later, in 1875/76 at the Albany Law School..

--- NEWLY ADDED ---
Each and every one of the first 18 Presidents, with the exception of William Henry Harrison (#9) who was in office only 1 month (& died due to complications from a cold), from George Washington to U.S. Grant...ALL spoke of the "law of nations" in either an "Annual Message" (to Congress) and/or a "Special Message" or "Proclaimation!"
More recently, Presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and both Bush's referenced "law of nations." In all, at least 30 of the 44 (a number that includes the 2 Usurpers Arthur and Obama/Soetoro) spoke of the "law of nations" in a message or speach.

A few of the more notible POTUS references to "law of nations" are:


--- END NEWLY ADDED ---

Vattel's definition for "natural born citizen" was read into the Congressional Record after the Civil War.

John Bingham, "father" of the 14th Amendment, the abolitionist congressman from Ohio who prosecuted Lincoln's assassins, REAFFIRMED the definition known to the framers by saying this:

commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))"

SCOTUS, in an 1887 case cites Vattel a number of times and reitterates that his work was translated into English in 1760:
"Vattel in his Law of Nations, which was first printed at Neuchatel in 1758, and was translated into English and published in England in 1760" U S v. ARJONA, 120 U.S. 479 (1887)

It's interesting to note that (non binding) Senate Resolution 511, which attempted to proclaim that Sen. John McCain was a "Natural Born Citizen" because he was born to citizen parentS, even they referenced the (repealed) Naturalization Act of 1790: "Whereas such limitations would be inconsistent with the purpose and intent of the `natural born Citizen' clause of the Constitution of the United States, as evidenced by the First Congress's own statute defining the term `natural born Citizen'".
Obama, himself, was a signatory of that resolution knowing full well (no doubt) the requirement has always been about 2 citizen parents.

The point is that up until relatively recently, the SCOTUS, the Congress, Presidents and the country were well acquainted with the law of nations and Vattel's edition in particular. It is also that, with the exception of the repealed Act of 1790 which tried to EXTEND the definition, the meaning of the term "Natural Born Citizen" (of the U.S.) has ALWAYS been about being born within the sovereign territory or jurisdiction of the U.S. to 2 citizen parents (& therefore parents who do NOT owe allegiance to another, foreign, country and who often then pass that foreign citizenship & allegiance owed on to their child - by birthright).

1 posted on 10/09/2010 12:21:53 AM PDT by rxsid
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To: LucyT; Fred Nerks; null and void; stockpirate; george76; PhilDragoo; Candor7; MeekOneGOP; ...
Ping!

"Proof the Founders knew & accepted Vattel`s "naturels" to mean "natural born" (re:Obama eligibility)"

2 posted on 10/09/2010 12:22:48 AM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: bushpilot1; All
Interesting to note, Freeper bushpilot1 posted on this very issue by his own discovery...at least back on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 5:41:20 PM.
3 posted on 10/09/2010 12:25:20 AM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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From bushpilot1's work...

Clearly...the founders new to translate "naturels" to "natural born" six (6) years BEFORE the Constitutional Convention!

4 posted on 10/09/2010 12:31:19 AM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: rxsid; bushpilot1
Photobucket

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5 posted on 10/09/2010 1:06:51 AM PDT by Red Steel
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To: rxsid; LucyT; Fred Nerks; null and void; stockpirate; george76; PhilDragoo; Candor7; MeekOneGOP; ...
The point is that up until relatively recently, the SCOTUS, the Congress, Presidents and the country were well acquainted with the law of nations and Vattel's edition in particular. It is also that, with the exception of the repealed Act of 1790 which tried to EXTEND the definition, the meaning of the term "Natural Born Citizen" (of the U.S.) has ALWAYS been about being born within the sovereign territory or jurisdiction of the U.S. to 2 citizen parents (& therefore parents who do NOT owe allegiance to another, foreign, country and who often then pass that foreign citizenship & allegiance owed on to their child - by birthright).

How recently is "relatively recently"? When did the nation's collective consciousness start losing its grip on this important and fundamental truth?

It is good that you keep bringing this to the forefront. The nation's memory needs to be jarred awake.

6 posted on 10/09/2010 1:22:16 AM PDT by thecodont
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To: thecodont
How recently is "relatively recently"? When did the nation's collective consciousness start losing its grip on this important and fundamental truth?

Birthers have had trouble finding evidence this was a widespread belief at any time in our history. It certainly wasn't widely known in 1856 when the Republican party's candidate, John C. Fremont, ran for President with no objections, despite having a French father.

Or in 1854, when then Secretary of State W.L. Marcy responded to someone concerned about the citizenship of aliens by telling him, "...every person born in the United States must be considered a citizen, notwithstanding one or both of his parents may have been alien at the time of his birth. This is in conformity with the English Common Law, which law is generally acknowledged in this country, and a person born of alien parents would, it is presumed, be considered such natural-born citizen, in the language of the Constitution, as to make him eligible for the Presidency."

7 posted on 10/09/2010 5:57:18 AM PDT by Kleon
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To: rxsid

As for this translation, the phrase being translated is “sujets naturels,” while Vattel just writes “naturels.” An important difference.


8 posted on 10/09/2010 6:02:56 AM PDT by Kleon
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To: All

Thanks to all who have worked on this.


9 posted on 10/09/2010 6:24:26 AM PDT by bgill (K Parliament- how could a young man born in Kenya who is not even a native American become the POTUS)
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To: rxsid

Post of 2010.

BRILLIANT work man! Absolutely brilliant!


10 posted on 10/09/2010 8:21:59 AM PDT by Danae (Analnathrach, orth' bhais's bethad, do che'l de'nmha.)
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To: rxsid
Keep up the good work rxsid in the battle of bringing the truth to light in spite of the mere flawed opinions of the kook fringe Obots and after birthers.
11 posted on 10/09/2010 12:13:58 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: Kleon
FYI...Fremont's parents were NOT married, thus he was born illegitimate & the father's citizenship did NOT factor in. His mother was still married to Pryor(arranged marriage) at the time as Pryor refused to giver her a divorce. Fremont's parents didn't marry until the old geezer died in 1838 when Fremont was 20 years old.

Want to spread rumors, better be able to back them up with facts, not crap aka misinformation cut & pasted from drconspiracy or politjab.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2700_132/ai_108791284/

Fremont was born in Savannah, Ga., in 1813, the illegitimate son of Anne Beverley Whiting. She ran away flora a pressured marriage of convenience to elderly Major John Pryor and fell in love with a Frenchman named Jean Charles Fremon, who contemporary research suggests was a small-time politician from Quebec, Canada. Fremon possessed a number of skills, and he taught French at the esteemed William and Mary College and later at an exclusive school in Richmond, Va. He engaged in a series of secret trysts with Whiting and, when rumors of her infidelity turned into public facts, Fremon was forced to resign. Following an own confrontation with Pryor, the couple ran away together, eventually winding up in Savannah, where Charles was born. Although Anne's family credentials went back to the American Revolution, she was virtually ostracized by the class-conscious southern society. She didn't marry Fremon until Pryor died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Frémont

Frémont's mother, Anne Beverley Whiting, was the youngest daughter of socially prominent Virginia planter Col. Thomas Whiting. The colonel died when Anne was less than a year old. Her mother married Samuel Cary, who soon exhausted most of the Whiting estate. At age 17 Anne married Major John Pryor, a wealthy Richmond resident in his early 60s. In 1810 Pryor hired Charles Fremon, a French immigrant who had fought with the Royalists during the French Revolution, to tutor his wife. In July 1811 Pryor learned that Whiting and Fremon were having an affair. Confronted by Pryor, the couple left Richmond together on July 10, 1811, creating a scandal that shook city society.[6] Pryor published a divorce petition in the Virginia Patriot, in which he charged that his wife had "for some time past indulged in criminal intercourse". Whiting and Fremon moved first to Norfolk and later settled in Savannah, Georgia. Having recently inherited slaves valued at $1,900, Whiting financed the trip and purchase of a house in Savannah by their sale. When the Virginia House of Delegates refused Pryor’s divorce petition, it was impossible for the couple to marry. In Savannah Whiting took in boarders while Fremon taught French and dancing. On January 21, 1813, their first child, John Charles Fremont, was born.[7] Their son was illegitimate, a social handicap which he overcame later with his marriage to the daughter of a powerful U.S. senator.

12 posted on 10/09/2010 6:05:29 PM PDT by patlin (Ignorance is Bliss for those who choose to wear rose colored glasses)
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To: rxsid; bushpilot1

Does anyone know who this Teo the Bear is? I really don’t take to sites that do not credit the original sources of their information. Puzo has taken credit for some of mine that I sent him as if he discovered it himself. Donofrio is a true gentleman lawyer & so is Pidgeon, they always give credit where credit is due.

Great Work BUSHPILOT! We at Freepers know haw hard you researched to find this masterpiece of information!


13 posted on 10/09/2010 6:13:25 PM PDT by patlin (Ignorance is Bliss for those who choose to wear rose colored glasses)
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To: rxsid

The only way trolls/0thugga-team etc people can deny this is to just keel on lying.

It’s not that they are dumb (although for sure plenty are), it’s that they’re consciously lying because of loyalty or money.

I’m not just referring to trolls on FR, but anyone who denies the obvious truths about 0thugga’s non-eligibility.


14 posted on 10/09/2010 6:31:56 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.)
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Oops - KEEP on lying.


15 posted on 10/09/2010 7:18:36 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.)
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To: rxsid
Thus when the founders and framers wrote the Constitution in 1787 they clearly knew what "natural born Citizen" meant when they upgraded the Citizenship requirement in Article II from simply being a "born Citizen" as proposed by Hamilton to that of being a "natural born Citizen" as recommended by Jay as a strong check against foreign influence on the persons in the future who would be President and Commander of the military.

This is interesting because I had in the past raised the question that if ONLY place of birth (jus soli) is pertinent than why didn't the framers simply use the term "Born Citizen?"

Why "Natural" Born Citizen?

If one applies only the concept of jus soli the two words "born Citizen"(in Natural Born Citizen)would suffice:

Thus making the word "natural" superfluous and redundant.

A reasonable alternative would be that the word "Natural" -- in conjunction with the words "Born Citizen" -- implies citizenship through the blood(jus sanguinis)extending from one's parentS

Thus, a Natural (and) Born Citizen ("Natural Born Citizen") would be ONE who is born in the country of parentS who are citizens of same: at the time of his birth.

So did the framers use the word "Natural" in a superfluous and redundant manner? Or was the word "Natural" intended by the framers to lend broader meaning to "Born Citizen" as enumerated above?

What is the most reasonable answer?

STE=Q STE=Q

16 posted on 10/09/2010 10:24:18 PM PDT by STE=Q ("It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government" ... Thomas Paine)
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To: patlin
FYI...Fremont's parents were NOT married, thus he was born illegitimate & the father's citizenship did NOT factor in.

Are you just making up a definition of natural born citizen as you go along? Because that's what it seems like.

17 posted on 10/10/2010 8:24:07 AM PDT by Kleon
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To: Kleon
Are you just making up a definition of natural born citizen as you go along? Because that's what it seems like.

Maybe you should open a book or 2 that was printed prior to 1900 sometime. Read the actual language of the laws of the time. Especially International Private Law regarding the nationality of a child born in wedlock & that of one born out of wedlock. How about natural law on the subject. John Locke could school you and he isn't that hard to read & understand.

Virginia citizenship law 1779

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a4_2_1s4.html

A treatise on the law of citizenship in the United States: treated historically By Prentiss Webster

http://books.google.com/books?id=ky-TxmjrU0YC&printsec=toc#v=onepage&q=illegitimate&f=false

A treatise on citizenship: by birth and by naturalization, with reference to ... By Alexander Porter Morse

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PR1&dq=A+treatise+on+Citizenship&id=GijrAAAAMAAJ&ots=O5wIOcJeT-#v=onepage&q=illegitimate&f=false

Cyclopedia of law and procedure, Volume 7 By William Mack, Howard Pervear Nash 1903

http://books.google.com/books?id=rHs8AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=illegitimate&f=false

18 posted on 10/10/2010 11:46:08 AM PDT by patlin (Ignorance is Bliss for those who choose to wear rose colored glasses)
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To: Kleon
IOW...if it turns out Obama’s parents were not married, then it proves he is a NBC, but it also proves he is a colossal liar for political expediency, for his own personal political gain at the expense of the American citizenry.

But it doesn’t stop there. The passport records clearly show he was an Indonesian citizen & either upon his return to the US or upon his coming of age there must have been a formal act, formal paperwork filed renouncing the Indonesian citizenship & the reestablishment of the US citizenship status he held at birth. To date, this has not been established, thus we don't know what country he actually is a citizen of. Perkins v. Elg 1939

19 posted on 10/10/2010 11:56:27 AM PDT by patlin (Ignorance is Bliss for those who choose to wear rose colored glasses)
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To: Kleon

NBC if infact it is proven without a shadow of a doubt that he was actually born in one of the 50 US states.


20 posted on 10/10/2010 11:57:53 AM PDT by patlin (Ignorance is Bliss for those who choose to wear rose colored glasses)
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