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A Noxious 2,400-year old lie, started by Plato, still Cripples us today.
Thinkwright Blog ^ | JWThinkwright

Posted on 01/18/2010 4:32:02 PM PST by El Gringo

A Noxious 2,400-year old lie, originated by Plato, still cripples us today.

And, once more, Karl R. Popper comes to the rescue.

Popper has examined, in great detail the writings of Plato. He concludes that Plato, and later thinkers and writers that followed Plato have wreaked havoc in science politics and philosophy down through the centuries. Popper presents the following small table of word definitions. The two columns have opposite definitions .i.e., individualism is the opposite of collectivism. Egotism is the opposite of altruism.

Individualism Collectivism
egotism altruism

To see the whole post:Click here

(Excerpt) Read more at death-of-a-republic.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Government; History; Politics
KEYWORDS: altruism; collectivism; egotism; individualism; myth; plato
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1 posted on 01/18/2010 4:32:02 PM PST by El Gringo
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To: El Gringo
Individualism Collectivism egotism altruism

Let's call the whole thing off.

2 posted on 01/18/2010 4:37:30 PM PST by abigailsmybaby (To understan' the livin' you got to commune wit' da dead.)
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To: El Gringo

Why say that Plato lied? That he was engaged in some devious deception? Maybe he was just wrong.


3 posted on 01/18/2010 4:42:23 PM PST by decimon
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To: El Gringo
I like the idea of "hijacking words". For example, there's the word "Fascist". The Leftwingtards have been telling a lie for many years that that this relates to little more than a specific political or party affiliation ~ e.g. the Nazis, which was opposed to the Socialists (or Commies).

In reality the word "Fascist" refers to something other than a political party ~ instead, it refers to a behavior, and to a belief system underlying how rules should be imposed.

Because the term "Fascist" describes behavior and not political affiliation, it's fair to use it to describe the behavior of Democrats, Socialists, Communists and Shining Path! It can be applied to Royalists and traditional Moslems in non-democratic states.

We've pretty well "hijacked" the term here at FR to the degree that others outside the FR counter-conspiracy are beginning to adopt the term for the same purposes.

We probably need to work a little harder to nail down "teabagger", meaning "a winner", and I think the path to that salubrious eventually was shown with the expression provided by another Freeper yesterday ~ to wit: "Better a TEABAGGER than a TEABAGEE."

4 posted on 01/18/2010 4:43:18 PM PST by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: El Gringo

Objectivism is the antidote: Aristotelian epistemology is superior to the Platonic construction. Besides, Aristotle was a better drinking companion. And when Socrates offers to buy a round, take a pass: that hemlock is one nasty hangover.


5 posted on 01/18/2010 4:45:59 PM PST by andy58-in-nh (America does not need to be organized: it needs to be liberated.)
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To: decimon

I believe Plato came up with his false simile the day he was supposed to pour the olive oil in the new jug, but instead drank all the wine in his personal closet.


6 posted on 01/18/2010 4:47:16 PM PST by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: El Gringo

There was not enough substance in this article to drawn any conclusions. Anyone that has studied Plato knows that he supported totalitarianism, even to the point of propagating the “noble lie.” I doubt that anyone today supports Plato or Aristotle’s views on the relationship of the individual to government.


7 posted on 01/18/2010 4:49:29 PM PST by Nosterrex
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To: El Gringo

Good stuff. The guy has a unique perspective on how all our current troubles started. Worth the time to study.


8 posted on 01/18/2010 4:49:40 PM PST by HardStarboard ("The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule - Mencken knew Obama)
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To: El Gringo
Never liked Plato. He always seemed to me to be an effete and effeminate snob.

There's a great anecdote about Plato and Diogenes that (I believe) is from Plutarch's Lives...

Goes like this: One fine day, Diogenes was at the town square cleaning lentils to make himself a meal. Plato strolls up to Diogenes and says: "Diogenes, if you'd only learn to kowtow to kings, you wouldn't have to eat lentils." To which Diogenes immediately responds: "Plato, if only you'd learn to eat lentils, you wouldn't have to kowtow to kings."

Great stuff!

9 posted on 01/18/2010 4:50:09 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: muawiyah

Naw, ol’ Plato just went made from all those conversations with his shadow.


10 posted on 01/18/2010 4:53:12 PM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
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To: HardStarboard
The guy has a unique perspective

Read Peikoff The Ominous Parallels.

ML/NJ

11 posted on 01/18/2010 5:18:22 PM PST by ml/nj
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To: El Gringo

I wonder if they will still be blaming Bush in 2,400 years?


12 posted on 01/18/2010 5:23:45 PM PST by caver (Obama's first goals: allow more killing of innocents and allow the killers of innocents to go free.)
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To: decimon
Why say that Plato lied? That he was engaged in some devious deception? Maybe he was just wrong.

I'm not going to give the author's site a hit, but I will point out that in Plato's Republic he explicitly introduces the so-called "Noble Lie" to justify rule by his Philosopher Kings.

13 posted on 01/18/2010 5:27:30 PM PST by r9etb
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To: andy58-in-nh
Objectivism is the antidote

Rand's objectivism, you mean? That's a lie, too, and a far more pernicious one than Plato's -- the latter at least had the honesty to admit his lie, but Rand insists that she's got the real goods.

Rand demanded that you accept her premises as correct -- but here's the test. Try to arrive at Rand's premises through logic and reason, applied to the evidence gathered by your senses -- just as she says you should. You very quickly end up stuck in the mud.

Here's the killer: consider Rand's statement that "man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself."

Now consider the moral responsibilities inherent in something so natural as parenthood -- we are morally required to be the means to our children's ends. Objectivism cannot even contend with the propagation of the species: it's a damned fraud.

I'm pretty sure Rand started with atheism and a desire to define an "absolute" moral system, and she fiddled with the logic to make it all work.

14 posted on 01/18/2010 5:37:39 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb

Try to arrive at your premises through logic and reason, applied to the evidence gathered by your senses: Please show how you thus derive:

“we are morally required to be the means to our children’s ends”

Think you better think this one through a little more.

Hank


15 posted on 01/18/2010 5:49:59 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: El Gringo

ping


16 posted on 01/18/2010 6:05:58 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: decimon

The Republic was all about being ruled by the elite (philo. king) and he argued for a slave state...You do what the king (who knows more than you) says you do.......


17 posted on 01/18/2010 6:18:30 PM PST by goat granny
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To: El Gringo

Somewhere long forgotten I read Plato said a man should not drink wine before 18, drink wine 19 to 40 but do not get drunk, after 40 consume as much as you want.


18 posted on 01/18/2010 6:20:02 PM PST by bushpilot1
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To: El Gringo

Recently purchased a copy Atlas Shrugged. Can someone help me get started..I can’t get past Who is John Galt. It is a paperback and the print is very small.


19 posted on 01/18/2010 6:26:07 PM PST by bushpilot1
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To: r9etb
" I'm pretty sure Rand started with atheism and a desire to define an "absolute" moral system, and she fiddled with the logic to make it all work. "

I know folks who on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays think Ayn Rand is just the bee's knees. The other days of the week they're devout, professing Christians.

I've never read Rand myself but I've heard all that I care to. I figure it's just all about the money.

20 posted on 01/18/2010 6:28:43 PM PST by OKSooner ("He's quite mad, you know." - James Bond to P. Galore in "Goldfinger".)
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