Posted on 12/21/2009 12:08:37 PM PST by annieup
FIRST OF ALL THE WITNESSES ARE NOT A CULT. THAT OPINION WAS FORMED BY SOMEONE THAT OBVIOUSLY FEELS THREATNED BY THE TRUTH.IT AMAZES ME THAT WHENEVER A WITNESS DOES SOMETHING WRONG IT MAKES THE FRONT PAGE OF THE NEWS! IF A BABTIST OR PROTESTANT DOES SOMETHING WRONG IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR RELIGION. AND THIS BIG COVER UP GARBAGE IS A JOKE. ADMITTEDLY THEY ARE NOT PERFECT NOR CLAIM TO BE. MATT 24:9 SAYS THAT WE WOULD BE OBJECTS OF HATRED ON ACCOUNT OF HIS NAME. WHAT OTHER RELIGION IS HATED ON ACCOUNT OF HIS NAME? ONLY 1 THAT I CAN THINK OF THE WITNESSES PROUDLY GLORIFY JEHOVAHS NAME. ALSO WE ARE NOT PROGRAMMED. WE HAVE FREE WILL,GOD DOES NOT WANT ROBOTS, THAT IS WHY HE GAVE ADAM AND EVE FREE WILL. AND WE DO BELIEVE IN JESUS. HE IS GODS SON AND HE DID GIVE HIS LIFE FOR OUR SINS. I ALSO GET A KICK OUT OF THOSE WHO TELL US WHAT WE BELIEVE, ESPECIALLY IF IT ISN'T TRUE. PEOPLE JUST MAKE UP WHAT THEY WANT ABOUT THE WITNESSES AND THE NAIVE ONES BELIEVE IT. IF IT IS TRUE THEN LOOK INTO WHY WE BELIEVE WHAT WE DO. DONT JUST ASSUME TO KNOW EVERYTHING THAT THEY TEACH OR BELLIEVE BASED ON SOMEONE ELSE'S OPINION. TALK ABOUT HAVING A MIND OF YOUR OWN!!
Yes NGZ, I'm looking forward to hear you address that issue. So far you are bobbing and weaving like a slinkey toy.
In this corner is JW the “Greek Mangler”
And in this other corner is Morg, the “Seer Stone Smasher”
Cage match for the title of the post apostasy restored church
I’m just wondering about the justification for the use of Jehovah within the NWT passage. Luke used “kurios” not YHWH, in fact, YHWH is never used by any NT author.
Mormanism may well have been delivered by some kind of spirit creatures. Of course, Mormons believe they will all eventually be gods and rule over their own planets, too.
As for the witnesses teaching the Trinity in 1881, they had just come out of the mainstream churches that taught the Trinity. They wanted to study the scriptures without any bias, and in covering subject by subject, the Trinity doctrine didn't hold up.
They also celebrated Christmas, and other celebrations with false or dubious backgrounds, which is not done now.
As I have stated before, I don't have the time to make a point by point refutation of everything.
The reason I have been continuing until now is that I know that if I suddenly stop responding, you or another here will declare victory and say that I couldn't refute you.
This will happen anyway, but let it be known that I have been taking time away from other necessary things to respond here.
I am on FR to read interesting and funny articles. I have never devoted this much time to reading or writing responses, because I do not have that much to devote.
Apparently you do, and hey, that's great.
I have been trying to tell you all along that I don't.
If/when I have time later, I'll get to the other points you mentioned, such as the 65AD thing, which is ridiculous.
You know full well that the EARLIEST surviving fragments from ANY of the NT are from around AD 125 - 160. The writing in 65AD, sure, but what original texts are these versions from? The Sahidic Coptic text have a similar structure to English, and they include the indefinite article in John 1:1. They were translated before the official adoption of the Trinity. In part, that is what i was making reference to.
Have a good day.
Godzilla, the whole translation is a joke. Here is a list of passages where they inserted Jehovah instead of the name of God actually used, etc. (from a website)...
List of Mistranslated Verses in the Christian Greek Scriptures (New Testament) of Jehovah’s Witnesses
The Greek word “Kurios” meaning “Lord” is mistranslated as “Jehovah” or “Jehovah’s.”
* Matthew 22:44; 23:39; 23:39; 27:10
* Mark 5:19; 12:29; 12:30; 12:36; 13:20
* Luke 1:25; 1:28; 1:32; 1:58; 1:68; 2:15; 20:42
* Acts 2:34; 2:39; 2:47; 3:22; 7:33; 7:49; 12:11; 12:17; 13:47
* Romans 4:8; 9:28; 9:29; 12:19; 14:11;
* 1 Corinthians 1:31; 3:20; 4:4; 4:19; 7:17; 14:21; 16:7
* 2 Corinthians 6:17; 6:18; 10:18
* Colossians 3:13
* 1 Thessalonians 4:6
* 2 Timothy 1:18; 2:19 (twice); 4:14
* Hebrews 7:21; 8:2; 8:8; 8:9; 8:10; 10:16; 10:30; 12:6; 13:6
* James 4:15; 5:15
* 2 Peter 2:9; 3:9
* Jude 5, 9, 14
* Revelation 1:8; 4:11; 18:8; 19:6; 21:22; 22:5; 22:6
Greek word “Kurie” meaning “Lord” is mistranslated as Jehovah.”
* John 12:38
* Acts 1:24; 4:29; 7:60
* Romans 10:16; 11:3; 14:6 (three times); 14:8 (three times)
* Revelation 15:4; 16:7
The Greek word “Kuriou” meaning “of Lord” or “of Lord’s” is mistranslated as “Jehovah” or “Jehovah’s.”
* Matthew 1:20; 1:22; 1:24; 2:13, 2:15; 2:19; 3:3; 21:24; 28:2
* Mark 1:3; 11:9; 12:11
* Luke 1:6; 1:9; 1:15; 1:45; 1:66; 1:76; 2:9 (twice); 2:23; 2:24; 2:26; 2:39; 3:4; 4:18; 4:19; 5:17; 13:35; 19:38
* John 1:11; 1:23; 1:38; 12:13; 12:38
* Acts 2:20; 2:21; 3:19; 4:26; 5:9; 5:19; 7:31; 8:22; 8:25; 8:26; 8:39; 9:31; 10:33; 11:21; 12:7; 12:23; 12:24; 13:10; 13:11; 13:12; 13:49; 15:35; 15:36; 15:40; 18:25; 19:20
* Romans 10:13; 11:34
* 1 Corinthians 10:21; 10:26; 11:32; 16:10
* 2 Corinthians 3:17 (twice) 3:18 (twice); 8:21
* Ephesians 5:17; 6:4; 6:8
* Colossians 1:10; 3:24
* 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 4:15; 5:2
* 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2:13; 3:1
* Hebrews 12:5
* James 1:7; 4:10; 5:4; 5:10; 5:11 (twice); 5:14
* 1 Peter 1:25; 3:12
* 2 Peter 3:10
The Greek word “Kurion” meaning “Lord” is mistranslated as “Jehovah.”
* Matthew 4:7; 4:10; 22:37
* Luke 1:16; 1:46; 4:8; 4:12; 10:27; 30:37
* Acts 2:25; 8:24; 15:17
* Romans 15:11
* 1 Corinthians 10:9; 10:22
* 2 Corinthians 3:16
* Colossians 3:23
* Hebrews 8:11
* James 3:9
The Greek word “Kurio” meaning “Lord” is mistranslated as “Jehovah.”
* Matthew 5:33
* Luke 1:17; 2:22; 2:23
* Acts 13:2; 14:3; 14:23; 16:15
* Romans 12:11; 14:4
* 1 Corinthians 2:16
* 2 Corinthians 10:17
* Ephesians 2:21; 5:19; 6:7
* Colossians 3:22
* Hebrews 8:11
* James 3:9
The Greek word “Theos” meaning “God” is mistranslated as “Jehovah.”
* Hebrews 2:13
* Revelation 4:8
The Greek word “Theou” meaning “of God” or “of God’s” is mistranslated as “Jehovah’s.”
* Matthew 4:4
* John 6:45
* Acts 13:44; 13:48; 16:32; 18:21
* James 2:23
* 2 Peter 3:12
The Greek word “Theon” meaning “God” is mistranslated as “Jehovah.”
* Acts 16:14
The Greek word “Theo” meaning “God” is mistranslated as “Jehovah”.
* Romans 4:3
* Galatians 3:6
* Colossians 3:16
* James 2:23
The Greek word “en” meaning “in” is paraphrased as “in union with” to support the Watchtower teaching that Christians support the cause of Christ, but do not have Christ dwelling within them.
* Matthew 10:32 (twice)
* Luke 12:8 (twice)
* John 6:56; 10:38; 14:10 (three times); 14:11 (twice); 14:20 (three times); 15:4 (three times); 15:5 (twice); 15:6; 15:7; 17:21 (Three times); 17:26
* Romans 8:1; 8:2; 8:10; 12:5; 16:7;
* 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1:30; 15:18; 16:24
* 2 Corinthians 5:17; 12:2; 13:5
* Galatians 1:22; 2:4; 2:20; 3:28; 5:10
* Ephesians 1:1; 1:3; 1:4; 1:11; 2:6; 2:7; 2:10; 2:13; 2:15; 2:21; 2:22; 3:6; 6:1
* Philippians 1:1; 3:9; 4:21
* Colossians 1:22; 1:27; 1:28; 2:6; 3:3
* 1 Thessalonians 4:6
* 2 Timothy 1:1; 2:10; 3:15
* Philemon :23
* 1 Peter 5:10; 5:14
* 1 John 1:5; 2:5; 2:6; 2:24; 2:27; 2:28; 3:6; 3:24 (three times)
* 1 John 4:4 (twice). 4:13 (twice); 4:15 (twice); 4:16 (twice); 5:20
* Revelation 14:13
The English words “exercise,” “exercising,” “exercised,” “exercises” are added with no basis in the Greek text. This term is added to support the Watchtower doctrine of works being added to faith to complete the salvation process.
* Mark 5:36
* John 1:12; 3:16, 18, 36; 6:29, 35; 7:5; 11:25, 36; 12:36; 14:1 (twice); 14:12; 16:9
* Romans 4:3; 10:4, 9, 10
* 2 Corinthians 4:13 (twice)
* Galatians 3:22
* 2 Thessalonians 1:10
* Hebrews 4:3
* 1 Peter 1:8; 2:6
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “cutting-off” instead of “punishment” to support the Watchtower’s belief in annihilation and the rejection of an eternal place of torment called “hell.”
* Matthew 25:46
The Greek words “kai theos en ho logos” are mistranslated as “the Word was a god,” instead of “the Word was God.” This is a distortion of the text as the word “a” is not in the Greek, but was added by the New World Translators to make the Word (Jesus) “a” second “god” who is separate from God the Father.
* John 1:1
The Greek words “ego eimi” meaning “I am” are mistranslated as “I have been” to obscure the connection between Jesus being the “I Am” Jehovah God of Exodus 3:14.
* John 8:58
The word “me” is omitted in “ask Me anything” to support the Watchtower claim that Jesus is not worthy to receive prayer.
* John 14:14
The Greek word “ginoskosin” meaning “to know, intimately” is mistranslated as “taking in knowledge of” to support the Watchtower doctrine that accurate knowledge is necessary for eternal life. Changing this translation from “know You” (as all other Bible translations have it) to “taking in knowledge of You” shifts the focus from a personal relationship with God to a mere intellectual study of God to gain eternal life.
* John 17:3
The English word “son” in “blood of his own [son]” is added in brackets without any support in the Greek text. This demonstrates the length that the Watchtower goes to deny that Jesus is the God who shed His own blood for us.
* Acts 20:28
The Greek phrase, “he petra de en ho Kristos” meaning “and the rock was Christ” is mistranslated as “and that rock mass meant the Christ”. Again, this shifts the focus from Jesus being the Jehovah God, Rock of Israel (Isaiah 30:29).
* 1 Corinthians 10:4
In the 1984 edition of the New World Translation, the English word “other” is added in brackets to indicate that the word does not occur in the Greek text. The translators of the New World Translation added the word “other” in “gave him the name that is above every [other] name” to support the Watchtower teaching that the name “Jehovah” is superior to the name “Jesus.” Only in recent editions of the New World Translation do we see the word inserted with brackets surrounding it. All editions from 1950 to 1981 had “other” added without brackets making it seem as if this word is in the original Greek text. On page 27 of the February 1, 1992 Watchtower magazine, we again see Philippians 2:9 being quoted without the brackets being used around the word “other.” This again demonstrates the deep rooted bias of the Watchtower Society against Jesus possessing a name equal and superior to name “Jehovah.”
* Philippians 2:9
Translation bias against the eternal nature of Jesus Christ as Creator God is clearly seen in the New World Translation’s insertion of the word “other” in reference to Jesus’ work in creation. By adding the word “other” to “all things” so that it reads “by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,” the Watchtower is able to justify its claim that Jehovah God created Jesus first and then used Jesus as His creative agent for the rest of creation. However, Scripture proclaims that Jesus is the Creator of “all things,” for He has always existed as the uncreated, “everlasting father” —possessor of eternity (Isaiah 9:6). While early editions of the New World Translation prior to the 1961 edition inserted the word “other” without brackets so that one could not tell the word is not in the original Greek, the 1961 edition and all others following it are more honest by enclosing the word in brackets. However, we again see translation bias against the Deity of Jesus Christ reoccurring in Watchtower literature on pages 20 and 21 of the February 1, 1992 issue of The Watchtower where the Watchtower’s insertion of “other” in Colossians 1:16 is again quoted without the brackets.
* Colossians 1:16, 17, 20
The Greek word “Theotetos” meaning “Godship, Deity, Godhead” is mistranslated as “divine quality” to detract from the full Deity of God being attributed to Christ in this passage.
* Colossians 2:9
The Greek phrase “Theou kai soteros emon” meaning “God and Savior of us” or “our God and Savior” is mistranslated as “god and of [the] Savior of us”. This word “the,” being inserted in brackets with no basis in the Greek text is yet another attempt of NWT translators to separate Christ from being God.
* Titus 2:13
The Greek words “pneumaton” and “pneumas” meaning “spirits” is mistranslated as “spiritual life” and “spiritual lives” to fit with the Watchtower doctrine that denies the existence of the human “spirit” that lives on past death.
* Hebrews 12:9, 23
“...you or another here will declare victory and say that I couldn’t refute you.
there is no refutation for the positions of heresy that
the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach. None. You might as well
try to fry water.
Better yet, open your eyes to what is being posted.
If what you know about the Bible is from the JW ladies,
your eternal destiny hangs in the balance.
Best,
ampu
Never the less, we have the Greek and Hebrew MS to refer back to if any questions arise. It is further lame in light of the fact that the NWT exhibits an overwhelming bias in it's translation. Greek and Hebrew scholars refute its work, and in fact, the JW 'translators' themselves are on record has having little to no fundamental working knowledge of Greek.
In the 1950's, JW leaders produced the NWT, with hundreds of verses changed to fit JW doctrine. As for the witnesses teaching the Trinity in 1881, they had just come out of the mainstream churches that taught the Trinity.
ROFLAICGU, really FOE, the context of the watchtower article is saying that WITHOUT the watchtower guiding your every thought, the Bible itself teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. Probably the only true statement the watchtower has ever made.
They wanted to study the scriptures without any bias, and in covering subject by subject, the Trinity doctrine didn't hold up.
Bawwwhahahawwwahha. The watchtower is afraid to allow its members to study the bible WITHOUT its guides and as the cited article shows, an UNBIASED study of the bible refutes the teachings of the watchtower.
They also celebrated Christmas, and other celebrations with false or dubious backgrounds, which is not done now.
But you will take the day off of work anyway
The reason I have been continuing until now is that I know that if I suddenly stop responding, you or another here will declare victory and say that I couldn't refute you.
That is not the way I generally work. Your failure to address points - or even muster an adequate defense speaks volumes to the lurkers out there. Your defense - or lack there of - is at their point of judgement. I didn't seek you out - you initiated this exchange. I even offered to have you focus on a smaller array of points to help you out IIRC. However, my point is for lurkers who may be confused by the canned JW arguments you have presented know how erroneous they are and so that they are not fooled by their pseudo-biblical sounding nature. Most times JWs I've encountered don't even respond as much as you do - the watchtower frowns upon such open and unsupervised interactions.
You know full well that the EARLIEST surviving fragments from ANY of the NT are from around AD 125 - 160. The writing in 65AD, sure, but what original texts are these versions from? The Sahidic Coptic text have a similar structure to English, and they include the indefinite article in John 1:1. They were translated before the official adoption of the Trinity. In part, that is what i was making reference to.
What a softball FOE. New research has indicated that parts of Matthew and Mark (?) are dated mid 1st century, you are out of date. Continuing in typical JW fashion, you appear to be citing Solomon Landers. For starters, the Sahidic Coptic texts were written late second century. As shown earlier, the doctrine of the Trinity was already well established by the end of the First Century, well before this Coptic translation, the Nicean Creed only formalized that which was already taught in the Church at the time as orthodox in defense from gnostic heretics. Just like the gnostic "gospel of thomas", gnosticism in egypt heavily influenced the Christian community. Having Jesus be a 'lesser god' fit well within the gnostic tradition. But I don't think this likely as I will explain in the following.
Now to the meat - since you've admitted to me that outside of what the watchtower provides for greek is insufficient to defend your points, you think switching to Coptic will help your cause? LOL. TRANSLATION by its very nature can cause 1-to-1 translation (literal) difficulties if the words or concepts being translated are poorly supported by the language being translated to. Sahidic has both an indefinite and definite article (whereas Koine Greek only has a definite article). The issue deals with the coptic use of 'noute' as either an indefinite or qualitative noun in John 1:1. Reviewing other usage, John 1:18 lends strong support for the latter, in that the Coptic translators would hardly have called the Word "a god" in John 1:1 and "the God" just 18 verses later. It is far more likely that they understood 'noute' in John 1:1 to signify that the Word had the quality of God (ie the Word was God).
Other scholars working with the Sahidic text say the same:
J. Warren Wells -
"To answer your questions: On my website I state "Coptic was the first language the New Testament was translated into that has the indefinite article; and the only language with the indefinite article that was produced during the Koine Greek period. "The is of interest because, in Coptic versions, John 1:1b is commonly translated "the word was with God and the word was a God" using the Coptic indefinite article; with some variation in word order. "In the proto-Bohairic version (Papyrus Bodmer III, the text of which was partially reconstructed by Rodolphe Kasser) the first occurrence of "God" in John 1:1 is in the Nomina Sacra form, whereas the second occurrence is spelled out. In John 1:18 the word "God" (which no one has seen) is in the Nomina Sacra form, while the word "God" (only-begotten) is spelled out." So literally, the Sahidic and Bohairic texts say "a god" in the extant mss. In a similar way translations of the Greek "pneuma ho theos" (spirit the god") at John 4:24 usually say either "God is spirit" or "God is a spirit" where both give the same sense of "what" God is, not who he is. Here the Sahidic says literally "a spirit is the God" (P.Palau Rib 183) as does the Proto-Bohairic (Bodmer III). To me, the sense of the passage in John 1 is likewise a description of what the Logos was in relation to God. A rather clumsy reading might be: The Logos was in the beginning. The Logos was with God. The Logos was like God (or godlike, or divine) with the emphasis on his nature; not his person."
Bentley Layon -
"Don't worry about the indefinite article of John 1.1 in Coptic; it might mean was a god, was divine, was an instance of 'god', was one god (not two, three, etc.). The range of meanings of the Coptic indef. article does not map nicely onto English usage, nor Greek. Once you learn Coptic you will know all of this."
It should come as no surprise, then, that the occurrence of the indefinite article before “God” in this passage suggests that the Coptic translator was looking at a Greek Vorlage with an anarthrous θεός. In other words, the fact that θεός was translated into Sahidic as an indefinite noun strongly suggests that the translator was translating a Greek text without the article.
BTW, Solomon was rebuked by watchtower for doing his work independent of their oversight.
Not really: English and Logic 101 should be enough to expose the HISTORY of the Organization® he has joined.
Enough to SHOW the fact of many FALSE PROPHECIES that has emmanted from WT headquarters.
Even the NWT should be enough to point out the False PROPHECIES that SHOWS that JW.ORG is another wrong road to be on.
Oh?
You took theirs...
It’s not a claim that I’ve made but a contradiction in their teaching.
It’s not a claim that I’ve made but a contradiction in their teaching.
It’s not a claim that I’ve made but a contradiction in their teaching.
We are your only TRUE friends...
“We’re your only friends”
We are your only TRUE friends...
“We’re your only friends”
We are your only TRUE friends...
“We’re your only friends”
We are your only TRUE friends...
“We’re your only friends”
Uh; our reasearchers have found it used somewhere, in something, at some time - can't say exactly where.
--JWDude(what kind of presents did YOU get today?)
Oh?
Got a link to this data?
So that means Jesus IS 'a' GOD, and now we have TWO gods!
OH... it's SO confusing...
There you go again!
Don’t you know that ACTUALLY using the correct words is NOT how to get what GOD really wants man to know?
HE has put the TRUTH into the HEART of man and we are merely CORRECTING the text that others have corrupted!
—MormonDude(Oh... Wait... this is about JW’s; isn’t it. Forget what I just typed.)
:-)
In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)
(Makes one wonder if these two Organizations have ever met and discussed things...)
Merry Christmas!!
All our snow melted yesterday and last night the WIND was awful!
Still is!
Merry Christmas, Elsie!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.