Posted on 12/04/2009 9:55:41 PM PST by Gordon Greene
Prior to the Reformation the population of Europe (the only place with substantial numbers of Christians at the time) ranged from roughly 30 million to 100 million. Just in the 20th Century alone there have been billions of non-Catholic Christians. Your 99% figure cannot be correct.
However, even if, for arguments sake, the number were reduced to 89% or 79% the point is still valid.
While I agree that your overall point is valid...time for another nitpick! Catholics who died unaware of the Theory of Evolution (which includes every one of them who died before the mid-19th Century) don't count, so he's technically not calling them idiots, only the billions who have lived since then.
“The difference is that my position can be influenced by reason where yours, as you admit, cannot.”
Actually - it is an “Escape from Reason” to assert that God is not there and the claims of the Bible are not true.
If you are unafraid of investigating the REASON for the certainty of Christian faith - I would strongly suggest you invest in these 3 classics from Francis Schaeffer:
The God Who Is There
He Is There and He Is Not Silent
Escape from Reason
God is the Creator of this universe and of all mankind, including you and we are to “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”
REASON demands the verdict that only an intelligent designer could create the intricate complexities of all we find in the universe.
Random chance events over time simply cannot explain WHAT IS.
And what evidence do you have that the Creator is your God and not, for example, Zeus?
Some (not a majority) of the Founding Fathers were Deists, such as Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Ethan Allen, and Benjamin Franklin.
it’s VERY clear that the whole ‘seperation of church and state’ arguments are based on lies and false interpretations of hte constitution and false interpretations of the statements and intents of our founding fathers
Was Founding Father Thomas Jefferson making a false statement about the statement and intents of the Founding Fathers when he invented the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state"?
Very cool!
Your numbers just don't add up. The total number on non Catholic Christians who have ever lived is approximately one billion. Conservative estimates of the total number of Catholics (all catholic sects that accept Apostolic Succession) is at least four times that number. Were I to use the YEC litmus test of only counting as Christians those who believe as I do, the number would be 100%.
"Catholics who died unaware of the Theory of Evolution (which includes every one of them who died before the mid-19th Century) don't count, so he's technically not calling them idiots, only the billions who have lived since then."
I am including those who accept the divine guidance of the Church. The Church did not discover anything new in Scripture to support the compatibility of the bible and science, the affirmed it and evolution helps explain it.
LOL...let me know when the novel-length argument clinic comes out :o)
The Bible which archaeological discoveries have continued to find to be accurate in its historical record along with the historical certainty of the life of the person Jesus (of Nazareth/Christ),,,,just for a start.
Yes, source for that comment.
Wishful thinking.....
Shall we bring up Catholic Church history and practices in other heavily Catholic countries around the world even today, if you're going to go that route?
I find it odd that you keep using this language denying speciation. Even odder that you're not the only antievolutionist here who makes a habit of doing so.
Although belief in fixed species, and that each individual species was separately created, was common among 19th Century creationists, I'm not aware of any leading modern creationist who argues for fixed species. Even the most conservative "special creationists" insist that, in some cases, entire Families represent a single "created kind," and therefore presumably exhibit common ancestry within the "kind".
The example mostly commonly cited by creationists themselves is the "horse kind," i.e. Equids. This includes horses, asses, and zebras. By the most "lumping," least "splitting" classification, there is one species of horse, three of ass and three of zebra. In addition to these seven living species, there are a couple dozen extinct. Other often cited "kinds" (creationists use the term "baramins") are equally or more diverse, e.g. dogs (Canidae), cats (Felidae), and camels (Camelidae, incl camels, dromedaries, llamas, alpacas, vicuñas, and guanacos).
Sometimes creationists have identified multiple Families or entire Sub-Orders as holobaramins (single created kinds) e.g. Mysticeti (filter feeding whales).
At least one entire Order, Testudines -- i.e. all turtles, tortoises and terrapins -- has been cited by multiple creationists as a possible "kind". This would link, for instance, the fully aquatic sea turtles and the desert dwelling tortoises by common descent! (Granted testudines are usually designated an "apobaramin," meaning it could contain more than one single created kinds or "holobaramin," but the point being that even creationists can't draw the lines, if any.)
[For the preceding examples, see the following article and "Table 1" linked therein: The Current Status of Baraminology (Creation Research Society Quarterly Journal, 2006). Find more on "baraminology" here.]
What's more, strict young earth creationists, at least, those who believe in a global flood (Noah's Flood), hold that speciation not only occurred thousands and thousands of times, but that it occurred thousands of times faster than any evolutionist would consider plausible. (I.e., in order to generate current levels of species diversity from the small numbers of "kinds" preserved during the flood.)
So here are professional "creation scientists" universally conceding that various, often large, groups of relatively diverse organisms (most frequently corresponding to about the Family level of conventional classification, IOW several steps up from the species level) are related by common ancestry -- and yet many, if not most, of the lay creationists here on FR are pretending like it's still 1840, and denying speciation altogether.
This is quite remarkable. It's as if the evolutionists here were ignoring Darwin and instead spouting Lamarck. How can creationists be so ignorant of creationism?!
The Catholic Church didn’t even really come into existence until sometime in the 300’s AD.
There were churches all across the known world before then, so all those Christians need to be not counted.
Not every Christian during the churches heyday belonged to the Catholic Church and I doubt there’s any way of knowing how many that would be.
The Protestant Reformation began in 1517 some 500 years ago. Al those people need to be considered in the category of Christian outside the Catholic Church. That leaves the Catholic Church about 1200 years of preeminence and easily 800 years of either not existing or having competition.
Then there’s the presumption that everyone who is a Catholic is by default a Christian. Does that include people who didn’t care, who didn’t want to be, who refused to live like Catholics? Those who flaunted religious living? Are Catholics Christians by default simply because of the name they bear, regardless of their beliefs, lifestyle, or behavior?
Considering those figures, and that much of the time that Catholic Church was in power, Europe was being devastated by war and plague, how do you arrive at the percentage that Catholics comprise 99% of the Christians who ever lived?
As you consider yourself a scientist and no doubt consider accuracy and evidence to be important, please back up your contention about your statement in a way befitting a scientist.
Precedent is that order and complexity are the result of intelligence.
What evidence do you have that order and complexity can come into existence without an intelligent impetus?
No assuming the conclusion, either.
Where do you get your numbers?
The total number on non Catholic Christians who have ever lived is approximately one billion. Conservative estimates of the total number of Catholics (all catholic sects that accept Apostolic Succession) is at least four times that number.
One billion to 4 billion? That's a 1:4 ratio.
What kind of math are you doing that determines that that is 99%?
Spain over the past 150 years would be a good start. Or Mexico.
I was actually thinking of a lot of South American countries, like Colombia for example, but those other two would work.
Perhaps it would be well to remember what church it was that was involved in the Galileo controversy, for example.....
“Thank you so much, Gordon Greene, for these great sources!!!!”
You’re welcome, but thank John.
GG
“The difference is that my position can be influenced by reason where yours, as you admit, cannot.”
Nope... I never admitted any such thing. Reason could absolutely influence me. Where I have a problem with evolutionists is when they are presented with reason and they do not know how to respond they resort to attacks, whining, name-calling, etc. I admit I’ve been a bit forward at times but it’s honestly in response to the attitude of the majority of evolutionists on this site. The only way I can get anything out of most of them is to fight fire with fire and sometimes I learn where they are coming from.
I’ve been pleasantly surprised by a couple of evolutionists on the site that have been not only civil, but reasonable, pleasant and a joy to debate. That, however has been the exception and not the rule.
“Now that you are done taking your bows can we get back to the part where you call those who believe in evolution idiots and explore how that applies to Catholics who comprose 99% of all of the Christians who have ever lived?”
No, because your premise is wholly manufactured and sheer stupidity. Not to mention contextually challenged.
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