Posted on 09/06/2009 1:34:49 AM PDT by joey703
U.S. naivete not only wrongly interfered with the natural development of East Asia, but in particular with respect to Korea, the greatest tragedy was that by the U.S. interfering in what was basically a civil war, the peninsula saw all the carnage and destructionthat would've played out anyways had the U.S. not interfered, but the wardid nothing to unify the nation ("Containment"). Moreover, the perverse state that North Korea finds herself to be in is a direct result of the natural order of things being prevented from occurring. Other Sinic nations experienced similar bouts of reconciliation, but with the fruits of unification.
I believe the U.S. during that period in time chose the wrong side. It was as if the U.S. in almost a John Bolton-esque fashion held so rigidly towards ideology that the nation was blind to what was really going on.The Civil Wars in the Sinic nations in East Asia were more a natural development of land reforms and a conclusion to societal fissures that hadbeen building up for quite some time and, while Communism promised to be the "quick way" towards modernization, the U.S. belief in this communist bloc to be a monolithic one was misguided (and costly) to say the least.
(Excerpt) Read more at northxkorea.blogspot.com ...
Han’s notion of the “natural order of things” is for Americans (and others) to premptively surrender to Communism whenever and whereever possible. Such a position assumes the superior place of Communism in the “natural order of things”. Such a position is not only laughable, it’s supremely stupid given the history of the twentieth century.
I can’t detect ANY originality in Han’s position, or indeed ANYTHING to distinguish his writing from the NK official line as promulgated by the KCNA and parroted by the Hanchongryun in South Korea.
This writing is simply not worthy of serious consideration or discussion, any more than would any of the hundreds of propaganda essays denying that the holocaust ever took place. It’s just crap, and nothing more. It’s not even funny as satire.
Contrary to your fervid championing, there is simply nothing worthy of discussion here.
You sure about that? Communist propaganda
Do you live in the 50s or what? It is almost 2010 my friend. And, communist nations no longer exist, but as one party totalitarian dictatorships that try to emulate the free market system as much possible. The natural order of things, I think it’s bolded right, is when he talks about economics...
Is it the case that first Japan, then South Korea then China then Vietnam’s economic development were all miracles or do they all have something in common? Something about being Confucian states that gives them some advantage over lets say like a Phillipines?
Perhaps you should learn how to read my friend before you start swearing and bringing up how many years you’ve been on this site. What are you talking about, lol? And, why are you at war with an enemy that does not exist?
But at least by dropping the nukes on Japan, Truman saved Japan from the same fate.
Russia may have inevitably won the war, but if Stalingrad fell, Stalin and the Bolsheviks might have been removed from power, and with it Communism.
Just because somebody points out an uncomfortable truth, doesn't make him communist. I mean I think it's a good idea the U.S. enterred the war when we did. i mean that shows how saavy the U.S. really was. And, getting Japan to attack Pearl Harbor... haha wow...
read
You joker! How on earth did I ever get the idea that when you were talking about Truman, the US involvement on the Korean war etc., you were actually talking about 2010!
Silly me. I was truly CONVINCED that you were talking about the post WWII - Korean War environment, not the environment that vindicated the entire post WWII American foreign policy!
Or, maybe you are a complete idiot.
Yeah, perhaps, I erred by thing that when I write something, then it’d be read the way it was written...
You say those are the words of the KCNA mouthpiece, but you fail to read how heavily I have criticized North Korea, go as far back as 2003 (if you'd like). While I may have been on this site since 98 I did follow this site for about a decade before registering in 2003....
The natural order of things also include those, perhaps those such as yourself, who do not possess the IQ or the level of reasoning to be able to express their opinions in a concise manner without resorting to language that you gives your words as much legitmacy or weight as the words Communist or as the word's Democratic or People's give to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea....
Not only that, but you express an opinion solely based against what somebody else expresses...
But, for all others that may take your words seriously, look beyond the obvious.
The period from 1947 to 1991 is a very short piece of history. And, a clear look at those two articles speak for itself.
Why are you asking ME this? This "natural order of thing" argument is yours, not mine. And frankly, I don't know quite what it means except that in the author's mind it means that Communist insurgencies ought to have been allowed to engage in subversion at their will with no resistance from the West, or specifically from the United States, because that upsets the "natural order of things".
I hope you won't be too offended if I point out that this is gratuitous circular reasoning.
I could just as easily point out that the communist insurgencies were disturbing the "natural order of things" in their native societies when they began to engage in subversion and armed revolution, but I wouldn't. Why? Because the entire line of reasoning is specious.
Can't you see where I'm arguing from? If anything, I wouldn't be a communist, but a traditionally minded American with conservative values that's trying to look at things from a Korean point of view?
What I meant in the two articles by the natural order of things are:
#1. It's not in the natural order to have a divided Korean peninsula or rival Korean states.Korea has pretty much had the same borders with the same homogenous group of people since 664 AD.. even without having to resort to the most ridiculous exercise of revisionist/nationalist history that has become the Balhae debate. So, imagine a country that has had one ethnic group... No minorities whatsoever for 1300 years... Consistently... Where's your sense of other in society? I mean if you look at American History, the identity of what it means to be American has gone from being defined by a particular ethnic group and religious denomination to a set of values and principles (and i'd like to language tradition as well -- "language")... But, in Korea, it has been the same for 1300 years, either you're Korean ("we") or an outsider (even "Chinese" would count here). If you go back far enough into Korean history, you'd actually see that Ming, yes, Ming Chinese emissaries in Korea were not allowed to even travel outside certain roads without Korean "interlopers" in not what is North Korea, but what was Joseon (a unified Korea)... So, as you can see, take these xenophobic tendencies that have lasted for more than a millenia and add that with colonialism and an unconcluded civil war and you are left with the bizarre state that is North Korea today that builds dams to kill other Koreans (And of course, a South Korea in denial).
#2. The natural order of things has also shown that Northeast Societies, or more precisely, Confucian societies have a favorable advantage when trying to obtain sustained economic growth(you can check the CBO's report on The Role Foreign Aid has Played in the Economic Development of South Korea and the Philipines (1997), for the exact link, i believe it's somewhere on my blogfor that)). But anyways, Korea being a Confucian society and the Philipines not. Thus, as in the 1950s it was the prevalent view or the Washington Consensus that export oriented development or that sustained economic development in Northeast Asia was just not going to happen, when first Japan and then the four Asian Tigers (all Confucian societies by the way) showed sustained economic development... then it was argued that these Korea's economic development was a miracle... (since all these tigers minus Korea were small island states)... I argue that it is not... I view that Confucian societies also enjoy (though not nearly to the same extent that American or Anglo-Saxon societies do with their strong legal and political institutions combined with free market enterprise and strong innovation)... that is a natural tendency to get rich... So, in this view, if Korea was destined to be rich at some point or well off, would it not have been better for Korea to have been unified during a civil war regardless of who did the unifying... I believe either route would have led to the same thing eventually... a prosperous Korea with strong democratic institutions (though favoring somewhat socialist principles of wealth distribution that all Confucian societies, such as Japan, have also shown)...
Perhaps, this is clearer... I will re-write it better on the blog shortly...
-Han
Author of Breaking Down Borders : Korea
p.s. I'll also be podcasting the course i'm teaching and the first class will have a specific slide hinting at this... that have traditionally favored education East is that the Confucian societies that have value Hence, it's weird to have a peninsula that's divided. This has led to a very bizarre state that is North Korea. Everything about North Korea is weird.. I think there's going to have to be a part III...
Han
Author of Breaking Down Borders : Korea
If you are saying that it would be great if the Korean peninsula were united under a single government - well then, how could I disagree? Ethnic distinctions in South Korean society (like between Cholla Namdo and Gyeonggi) are so minor that from a Western perspective they are virtually non existent. Something like the difference between an Ohioan and a New Englander. Differences between North and South continue to exist, with the North relatively undeveloped and agricultural, completely the reverse of the pre-Korean War situation. Moreover, having lived in Korea for more than a decade, I can say with certainty that it is the sincere, heartfelt wish of EVERY South Korean that this were so. But, not every Korean would agree that the partition was worse than the imposition of Communist rule over the entire nation, in fact I think only a minority of South Koreans would agree with this notion. The notion that the interference of the US led to the division of Korea can’t be taken seriously unless you consider the imposition of Communist rule both natural and unavoidable.
I could (and would) argue with equal sincerity that the division of Korea was caused directly by the Chinese invasion of the peninsula after virtually the entire nation had been liberated from the Communists.
Moreover, if you argue that Confucian societies generally embody values that are compatible with successful, vibrant economies, I also have to agree. I would be a bit reluctant to attribute this solely to Confucianism, but instead to the entirety of the national mindset. But then, why did North Korea fail, and China and Mongolia stagnate until Deng in the case of China and the fall of the Soviet Union in the case of Mongolia? I’d argue strongly that the nature of Communism at its core is “against the natural order of things”. It abhors a free economy and elevates a central control of the means of production. It stifles creativity and enterprise. South Korean prosperity resulted in no small measure from their access to the US marketplace.
I’d argue that North Korea would already be dead and gone if it had not been propped up by all manner of “humanitarian” aid from the West, from Japan, and from South Korea itself. Now, there’s something I do see as against the natural order of things - propping up your enemy.
Also, I think there was a moment, when the Soviet Union fell, and Germany re-united, that South Korea recoiled from the social turmoil and costs that reunification would have brought, and the opportunity that might have existed slipped away. What set of circumstances might now arise wherein reunification might be possible is something that has not been revealed to me. I can scarcely imagine what it could be short of a terrible and all-encompassing collapse within North Korea.
And there would have never been a Korean war had the Allied powers allowed Japan to keep it as their territory.
:-P
Also, I think there was a moment, when the Soviet Union fell, and Germany re-united, that South Korea recoiled from the social turmoil and costs that reunification would have brought, and the opportunity that might have existed slipped away. This is what I'm talking about. Everything you argue I take for a fact except for a couple things and come with the conclusion that the crazy costs of unification that are being contemplated is ridiculous since Korea already paid the price of unification once (the Korean War) without seeing its natural conclusion.
Ethnic distinctions in South Korean society (like between Cholla Namdo and Gyeonggi) are so minor that from a Western perspective they are virtually non existent. Ethnic distinctions do not exist in Korea (well up until recently) Well, actually this point doesn't even matter, but ethnic distinctions do exist between the English descendants in New England to the Scots/Irish in the Appalachians...
The imposition of communist rule was both natural and unavoidable. The U.S. didn't liberate all of Korea...(looking at it from a 1950s point of view), since at that point in time the vast majority of the peasants in all of Northeast Asia did indeed favor Communism.. So, your argument about China being at equal fault doesn't apply. Also, the U.S. accounted for half of all wealth at that point in time, which puts things in perspective about what the U.S. really was capable of... also check Han's comment here:. Copied and pasted in full:
And, in a similar light the U.S. was so caught up on the communist aspect of these "revolutions" going on in East Asia that the U.S. couldn't realize that these communist revolutions were really at the initial stage "a people's revolution" in that they really were people trying to build brand new institutions, after those of years past saw their countries become the play thing of foreign powers. Capitalist or Western Institutions lacked credibility to much of the people in this region at that time.
The U.S. had she been more open-minded and confident (as should have accompanied her very sizeable wealth and power relative to the rest of the world) in her approach to this region, could have seen this and had supported a Mao or Kim Il Sung or Ho Chi Minh rather than a Chiang Kai Shek or a Rhee Syng Man (who America hated as much as those in South Korea did by the way)...
The cold war would've been over before it had even started... It really wasn't about Communism in that part of the world, but the U.S. made it like that. Of course, with respect to Mao this goes before 1945... The U.S. would not have feared Communism to be this Monolithic plague. I'd like to point out how U.S. Vietnam veterans must've felt when a sitting U.S. president visited a united communist Vietname
No Mention of SOVIET, or CHI-COM support of the North Koreans however...
How unbiased this article is!!1
C’mon now, everybody repeat after me:
EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE, is America’s fault!!!
Oh so, very true... And, that does bring up one of the worst betrayals in the history of betrayals (what South Korea did to the Republic of China (Taiwan)), which lobbied for an indepedent Korea in the 1943 Cairo Conference...
Of course, from a Chinese perspective, it can also be argued, that China would never let the Korean peninsula be controlled by Japan... (Imjin Wars 1592,1597, Sino-Japanese War 1894)
This moron’s knowledge of history is laughable, AT BEST...
STALINGRAD was not the turning point in the East, it was KURSK, in July 1943, 6 months AFTER Stalingrad, followed by the Soviet Summer Offensive after it, that spelled doom for the Germans in the East, they RECOVERED from Stalingrad, but could not recover from the losses suffered at Kursk, and never regained the initiative after that.
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