Carolyn Jessop, who escaped from an FLDS marriage that included 6 other wives and 54 children.
Posted on 04/22/2008 12:46:48 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback
Carolyn Jessop, who escaped from an FLDS marriage that included 6 other wives and 54 children.
Rulon Jeffs, 90, poses with two of his brides approximately two years before his death. Reported estimates of the number of his wives range from 19 to 75. His son, Warren, succeeded him as Prophet of the FLDS.
I have to say, I'm more than a little disturbed how many conservatives I'm coming across who believe that the FLDS folks from the YFZ ranch in Texas have been on the receiving end of another Waco, or something resembling the Elian Gonzalez abduction. Though of course I consider the adults at the ranch to be innocent until proven guilty, I believe that the facts available show the authorities made the right call on this one as far as seeking a warrant and taking temporary custody goes.
Let's put the FLDS aside for a moment, and consider MS-13. Through numerous court findings and testimony of victims and former members, MS-13 can be regarded without doubt as a criminal enterprise. One of their specialties is human trafficking. Now, imagine a young woman has called police from a cell phone, describing herself as one of the slaves MS-13 brings into the country. Imagine that when she describes her location the police recognize it as a known meeting place and suspected "processing center" for the gang. Imagine also that these same police know that a major MS-13 leader has recently been convicted of multiple counts related to setting up the human trafficking network in the first place.
If you're a cop, do you go get a warrant and raid the place? I sure would!
Some readers may be offended that I have compared a religious commune to a gang so vicious they pretty much qualify as a terrorist organization. My point is not that the FLDS is as dangerous as MS-13. That wouldn't be true if everything they're accused of is true several times over. No, my point is that they are both known criminal enterprises. One of them just happens to also be a religion.
Sure, the FLDS is a faith community, but an essential part of their faith practice--a part as important to them as confession is to a Catholic and keeping kosher is to an Orthodox Jew--is the "spiritual marriage" of multiple women to one or more men, usually starting at an age well below the age of consent. Given what has been revealed in court at Warren Jeffs' trial and the testimony of numerous people who've left the FLDS (see the "True Stories" section at systematic abuse of boys as well.
Unless the FLDS goes through a doctrinal change far more sweeping than the change Mormons went through when they gave up their doctrines of polygamy and racial supremacy, it will remain a criminal organization, dedicated to committing sex crimes because they believe these sex crimes are God's preferred way to build families. Does that mean they should be broken up? No, a religion is a religion, and their Constitutional protections prevent that. But as long as every outward sign points to them engaging in horrific illegal acts as part of their religious practice, there will be a lot of opportunity for probable cause.
It could be that the state is way out of line, and we'll find that out at trial with a lot of acquittals and fat lawsuits against Texas to follow. But I think there was enough probable cause here for two or three cases.
I have four more issues with what Scott wrote, the first two of which are points he made that I've seen expressed by other conservatives:
1. I'm concerned about members of the Christian, conservative or homeschooling communities treating polygamy as no big deal. It's true that some heroes of the faith were polygamists, but it's also true that I can't recall one of them who didn't suffer. David, Solomon, Jacob...each had misery, and Solomon was even drawn away from worshipping God because of influence from his multiple wives. Moreover, there is an opppressive aspect to the FLDS's activities that I'm certain wasn't present in any home run by someone who was called "a man after God's own heart." FLDS women are basically chattel. That's why I don't see polygamy as practiced by these folks as being superior or even equal to being raised in a homosexual environment. "Heather Has Two Mommies" and "Heather has Eight Mommies and a Daddy Who Can't Remember Her Name" both seem like bad news to me.
2. The idea being advanced that only certain girls (the pregnant teens) or only the female children should have been taken into custody is way, way off. Either every child should have been removed or not a single one should have been removed. If this ranch was what the state claims it was, every adult there was was involved in or knew about a conspiracy to commit serial child sexual abuse. In other words, either the state is lying or there's not a single adult there who should have custody of a child.
Would you let a babysitter care for your son if he told you he had been convicted of child sexual abuse, but was only interested in girls? Neither should a parent who allowed abuse of young girls be considered a fit guardian for young boys.
3. The argument that God saw fit to open these women's wombs so we should trust His judgment is not Bbiblically sustainable, and I know from personal experience that it's flawed. Consider that God also opened the wombs of the women who sacrificed their infant children to Molech, so the mere existence of a child doesn't mean the child will be welcomed and cared for properly. My great-grandmother's womb was opened so she could have my peternal grandfather, and he and at least one of his brothers were so badly abused that they spent time in mental institutions. Both of these men performed heroically in WWII and one was even offered a battlefield commission. They deserved better than to have parents who abused them.
4. Scott, you called Madonna "beautiful and a whore." I have to strongly disagree with that description. For once I am in agreement with the editors of Maxim, who referred to Madonna as "Willem Dafoe with hot flashes." :-)
Of course we have to watch our government, but we need to be careful about when we start yelling "SHEEP!" We might just be enabling a pack of wolves.
“I think that many of these women have no reference point outside of the compound from which to judge the activities inside.”
One of the FLDS women interviewed on FOX had only been with the sect for a short time. She knew of the *outside* world.
One thing I do know and every cop will tell you: Ignorance of the law (even moral law)is no excuse.
If a *parent* doesn’t know when their children are being hurt or abused, they don’t deserve the title nor the children.
The last time I checked I was not bound by any other persons MORAL LAWS. I have my own morals and they fit me just fine. Would you live by the morals of islam?????
Gee, just like any cops would be when they know an organization that habitually breaks the law has moved into town.
Then take it one step further and imagine how over zealous they were when a tiny unverified and unresearched crack appeared. I think that there are a lot of people wondering if somehow the local storm troopers didn't figure out a way to initiate the totally bogus and fake call them selves.
Can you cite some facts, because the FLDS has put up a website (http://captivefldschildren.org) and even they don't allege any activity I'd associate with "stormtroopers." They note that the cops showed at the gate with the proper warrants. They've got a whole page of photos that show a lot of cops and a Sheriff's office M-113, but don't look like any SWAT action I've ever seen. They do claim some kids were prevented from praying at the El Dorado Civic Center. I guess we'll see in court (criminal or a lawsuit if there are no convictions) whther that's true or not.
Why is your portrayal of law enforcement in this case so much harsher than that of the people whose home was raided and whose kids have been removed from their custody? Can you provide some data that will fill in the gap?
and has led to the court sponsored kidnap of over 400 children.
Kidnapping is a capital crime in the U.S. Shouldn't you produce some actual evidence before you accuse a number of people of a capital crime?
One thing is a for sure conclusion. the next time the cops in Texas knock on the door of one of these compounds they will be met with violence. They have made it quite clear that they residents of any communal living alternate belief system have nothing to loose by putting up a fight.
You're saying these people would start spraying bulllets around the place their kids live because they have "nothing to lose" by doing so? Dang, with friends like you, they don't need enemies!
They have learned that anyone can call from any location and tell a lie and then based on that lie without any verification or research that their children can be taken from them without any physical proof of any wrongdoing on their part.
1. So, the police can only repond to a report of a crime after they've investigated the reporter? So, if I hear a prowler tonight, the police should send a squad car by in a couple of days after they check my credit rating and three non-related references, or what?
2. Oh, so pregnant girls under the age of consent isn't physical evidence of a crime? Are you saying the cops held a seance, or what?
These kids aren't in state custody because Mama spanked them.
These people are being investigated for particularly egregious child abuse, not "loose morals" or "non-mainstream morals." If they are innocent this is tragic, but this is not a case where someone is being considered a criminal over a difference of opinion, and it's really bizarre to see someone argue as if it is.
If we can agree the male dominated Sharia law is wrong, I think we can agree rape, especially by a family member, is equally wrong.
From the beginning of this, my thoughts have been with these children and what they must be going through. Fact of the matter, all children who are taken from their parents feel similar angst. I wish these poeple hadn't come to Texas but, now that this has happened, we'll have to see how it plays out.
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