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Is There Any Proof For God?
SacredScoop ^ | 04/11/08 | CottShop

Posted on 04/11/2008 12:16:58 PM PDT by CottShop

I suppose a lot of people wonder why a loving God would keep Himself so hidden and unseen when so many people it seems are looking for Him. Some people I suppose wonder why God doesn’t just make Himself known to everyone and ‘just let them decide’ after His physical revelation is made clear?

First off I want to point out that for God to make Himself physically known to us, God would have had to have been physically with everyone right from the beginning of creation, to the present, as people are born every single second, in great numbers, and people would constantly need to be seeing Him personally. Secondly, I want to point out that God was in fact with a great many people- physically and undeniably, for a very long time, and yet, they still refused to believe in Him.

You might be thinking ‘Yeah, but they (the Israelites) were then left alone while Moses went atop the mountain, and they ‘just forgot’ and became scared, and so temporarily lost their faith- that’s understandable.’ I would disagree. God had lived with them, performing one supernatural miracle after another in their presence, and yet, what should have been far more than enough to satisfy them for a lifetime, was quickly forgot once God was separated from them?...

...I will make the claim here, that it is perhaps easier to serve a God who must be sought, than it is to keep serving a God that is constantly with us, and it is perhaps even easier, and it certainly takes a more genuine heart, to find a God who is partially hid than it is to seek a God that is here physically with us.

Sounds strange, I know, but let me explain...

Read the rest at http://sacredscoop.com/?p=766

(Excerpt) Read more at sacredscoop.com ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Education; Religion
KEYWORDS: god; invisible; personal; proof
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To: CottShop

Cott,I have always been fascinated with NDE’s and was wondering if your”Hellish”experience was before or after your last committment to Christ?


61 posted on 04/12/2008 12:58:42 PM PDT by Riverman94610
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To: CottShop

CottShop said:
I know God still works in marvelous ways i nthe lives of believers, but I think the age of true miracles is past- While God does save from disasters and illnesses, the true miracles that ‘wowed’ everyone like the raising of hte dead, and the restorign of eyesight with nothign but spit and mud and some even say, the restoring of hte denturians head (soem biblical scholars say that Peter cut his head off- not the ear as is commonly thought), are all miracles that we no longer see- the real “That is a true miracle” type of miracles. Today, God does divinely intervene, but in more subdued ways- and while the ways may be incredible in their own right, I don’t think they rise to the levels restoring body parts, walking on water, turnign water into wine, raising hte dead etc.

No we don’t see much of that…CottShop. But Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. It’s our generation that has changed…not God. I’m afraid we’ve become callused and doubters just like Thomas was. We moved away from Him…He’s never left us.

If we have the simple child like faith to believe Jesus will heal us…He will!

It’s so funny that you asked this question as the Holy Spirit has been leading me the past few weeks to all the miracles that happened with Smith Wigglesworth and others when folks had a simple faith to believe what God tells us in the Bible. That we have the power and authority using Jesus precious name to cast out demons and see healings happening everywhere!

Speeches, sermons, writings, and biographical information about British pentecostal evangelist Smith Wigglesworth (1859-1947).

http://smithwigglesworth.blogspot.com/2007/06/deliverance-to-captives.html

And many, many miracles are happening today in places like Africa for one
http://www.christian-faith.com/testimonies/1africantestimonies.html

And You Can see It all happening too! Because it’s not you doing the healing…it’s you having the faith to believe that Jesus still heals.

Any Christian who believes in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and who has made Him Lord of their life can pray for the sick - It says so in scripture:

Mark 16:17 Believers will be given the power to perform miracles: they will drive out demons in my name; they will speak in strange tongues;

Mark 16:18 if they pick up snakes or drink any poison, they will not be harmed; they will place their hands on sick people, and these will get well.”


62 posted on 04/12/2008 5:27:18 PM PDT by Ready2go (Isa 5:20 Destruction is certain for those who say that evil is good and good is evil;)
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To: CottShop

I’d love to hear your NDE experience too CottShop. I got to see the beautiful, awesome light, but didn’t get to continue on.


63 posted on 04/12/2008 5:31:29 PM PDT by Ready2go (Isa 5:20 Destruction is certain for those who say that evil is good and good is evil;)
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To: Riverman94610

Riverman94610 have you ever heard Ian McCormack testimony?

http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/ian_mccormack/Ian_McCormack_Glimps_of_Eternity.htm


64 posted on 04/12/2008 5:38:27 PM PDT by Ready2go (Isa 5:20 Destruction is certain for those who say that evil is good and good is evil;)
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To: CottShop

CottShop said: Awhile ago I heard a Jewish Born Again Scholar talking about hte miracles of Christ, and how they were divinely designed specifically for the Jews and included incredibly ‘content rich’ results that were specific to Jews alone, so that any Jew witnessing these miracles coudl not say that they were not from God. These miracles had very specific Jewish implications, and htey fulfilled prophesy so precisely that the Jews could not honestly deny them when htey saw or heard of them.

That’s it CottShop…they knew what they were to be looking for from the scriptures, and even though they saw all the miracles Jesus did they still denied that He was their long awaited Messiah…but that was God’s plan so that we might be saved by becoming Christians…following after and confessing Jesus as our Lord & Savior.

Jesus was and is fulfilling Bible Prophecy. Bible prophecy is the foretelling of events in earth’s history, recorded in God’s Word passed down through time so we would not be in darkness

It’s like we sit here now saying with all the miracles they saw back then how could they have denied Jesus….yet we have all the signs Jesus told us to look for before He returns for us and we just say Ho-hum…what’s up with that?

After all the BIBLE is our = Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.

CottShop said: I wish I still had my notes on the sermon, because it showed just how specific and how significant to Jewish culture and tradition these miracles were- it was r4eally amazing-

It truly is amazing…as Christians we need to know about the Jewish customs for example I love the Jewish Wedding.
The Jewish wedding.

THE COVENANT
Jewish weddings in the day of Christ began with a covenant. A prospective groom would “propose” his terms to the family of a prospective bride and their agreement would become a covenant between them. God has described our relationship with him as a covenantal one, and he describes his covenantal love of that of a husband.

“The day will come,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the Lord. (Jer. 31:31-32 NLT)

The Jewish grooms paid dowries to repay a family for raising a godly woman. God paid a ransom to save you from the impossible road to heaven which your fathers tried to take, and the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver as you very well know. But he paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. (1 Peter 1:18-20 TLB)

Once the terms were established the agreement was sealed by drinking a cup of wine. On the day of his death, Jesus sealed the covenant with his bride. He drank signifying he was willing to pay full price. He asked his followers to drink signifying they would wait for his return and be his bride.

As they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread and asked God’s blessing on it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, “Take it and eat it, for this is my body.” And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said, “Each of you drink from it, for this is my blood, sealing the new covenant between God and his people. It is poured out to forgive the sins of many. Mark my words - I will not drink wine again until the day I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom.” (Mat 26:26-29 NLT)

BETROTHAL PERIOD
Another comparison is the groom preparing for his bride. In the day of Christ, grooms would leave their betrothed brides with her family. He would usually go to his father’s house to rebuild or add a new section. He would also make the preparations for a 7 day wedding party. Jesus said: “There are many rooms in my Father’s home, and I am going to prepare a place for you. If this were not so I would tell you plainly. When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am.” (Jn 14:1-4 NLT)

The Jewish father would supervise the preparations because he would be the host while the groom attended to his wife for 7 days in a wedding chamber. When everything was ready the Father would give his blessing. Jesus taught about the rapture of the church with this wedding. He said; “no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.” (Mark 13:32 NLT)

The parable of the ten virgins (Mat 25:1-13) was the clearest comparison of the relationship between God and man to the Jewish wedding. Here he warned us to “be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour,” and he gave us oil for our lamps, the Holy Spirit – light to see him coming and a guarantee of his return (2 Cor. 5:5)!

The Jewish wedding captured the heart of a woman; romance, excitement, and anticipation. However, the bride would also feel nervous about the nakedness soon to come (and nervous about the pain of loosing her virginity). The Church will have some apprehension as well. At the rapture, all will be revealed. We will be spared the same judgment as the rest of the world. However, we will undergo Christ’s Judgment Day /“the Bema Seat of Christ” (Rom. 14:10, 2 Cor. 5:10) when the rapture happens. Everything hay, wood and stubble will be burned away (1 Cor 13:13). However, although burned by his fire, we will all be saved (1 Cor. 3:15)!

WEDDING NIGHT
Jewish brides were “stolen away” or “carried off” in the night by their lovers. The only warning the bride and her wedding guests would get were shouts or blasts from shofars (ram’s horns) as the groom and his friends approached her home. She would have heard: “The groom is in the land!” The Bride of Christ will also not know the exact day or hour of the return of our groom, but we will know it is getting close (Mat. 24:33).

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words. (I Thes. 4:16-18 NLT)

The Jewish bride and groom went first to the wedding chamber. The guests waited for the covenant to be consummated before celebrating. ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb.’ (Rev 19:9) The Best-man waited by the door to hear the news and pass it on to the other wedding guests. John the Baptist referred to himself as the friend of the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. (John 3:29 NIV)

WEDDING SUPPER
After 7 days, the Jewish bride and groom would come out from their wedding chamber to attend the wedding supper. This could be the 7 years between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Having been through the Judgment seat of Christ, the Church will be purified by fire and be ready to take our place next to Jesus in the Kingdom of God!

Let us be glad and rejoice and honor him; for the time has come for the wedding banquet of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself. She is permitted to wear the cleanest and whitest and finest of linens.” Fine linen represents the good deeds done by the people of God. (Revelation 19:7-8 TLB)

TODAY
We are currently betrothed to the Lord! What does a veil mean to us? It means we wait. It means we are “consecrated”, “set apart”, and “bought with a price”. It means that we can stand before the Lord in prayer and worship with a posture of bridal authority. No longer do we need to pray and approach the Lord like the persistent widow that Jesus talked about in Luke 18. We are his beloved. We can approach him knowing we are deeply and intimately loved.

http://www.praguefellowship.cz/pages/Default.aspx?tabid=420
http://bibleprophesy.org/introwedding.htm


65 posted on 04/12/2008 5:51:43 PM PDT by Ready2go (Isa 5:20 Destruction is certain for those who say that evil is good and good is evil;)
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To: Ready2go

No,but I will research that when I have some time off work.
Thank you.


66 posted on 04/12/2008 6:31:08 PM PDT by Riverman94610
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To: Riverman94610; Ready2go

Hi to both of you- sorry took so long gettign back to you.

River- I was born again when I had the experience- I’d been sick with Crohn’s disease for many years, and it got so bad that my digestive trac was perforated and I got peritinitus while in the hospital- Had real high fever & last hting I was conscious of was bed flipping round and round- then I went out of it and thigns became very clear to me-

I remember descending into hell, and them oment I stopped, I was engulfed in hot sand- I couldnm’t breathe as it filled my lungs and nose and mouth and ears, and I remember suffocating, but for soem reason it didn’t kill me- just kept going on and on. I remember insects eating away at me and hte heat- too much to bear (now remember, I had a high fever, so this could have been reason I remembered being hot- but the wierd thing was that when I felt the heat of hell I envisioned it bubblign the skin on me- this could have been all the fever ‘talking’- but when I finally came to- Docs had ushered my folks out of room and said I was dying- so who knows- whether it was tue NDE or not- I don’t know)

Anyway, I remember being in agony- not able to breath- but I could see- I then looked up and saw my mother descending, and I immediately began to cry and shouting at God that that wasn’t right- she shouldn’t have been descending into hell- and my heart just broke thinking she would have to suffer what I was suffering- but hten she was goen and I realizzed it was perhaps a form of torture- then I heard this sound- a ping... ping... ping... and I remember trying to take my mind off the sufferign by tryign to concentrate and keep rythm- then a voice said “Son, you must pass this test” and I remember I had to try to keep the rythm- so I tried, but it just got faster and faster sounding and I couldn’t anymore, and I began to weep uncontrollably- then the voice said “Don’t worry, there is no heaven and no hell, you don’t exist”.

Then I felt complete nothingness- you know what was the most terrible of all of it? The nothingness. I was aware, but not of myself, not of any surroundings, not of heat, not of cold, just aware- complete loneliness of conscience. Dark everywhere- nothign in sight.I was aware of complete seperation for everythign, including God .I can’t explain it any better than that- but it was a fearful nothingness I never want to experience again-

Then I came to and tried to tell the docs what had happened, but they didn’t seem too interested- I was probably babbling at that point as I remember it takign quite a few hours before I really started feeling fully with it again.

Anyway- that was my experience- very vivid- very intimidating- totally unscriptural lol :)


67 posted on 04/12/2008 9:52:35 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: Ready2go

Ready- I’ve researched wigglesworth before, and I discovered that none of his suppsoed raisings from the dead were ever recorded, and htere was some kind of funkiness regardign his wife’s suppsoed healing too while his child died of illness. If I recall right.


68 posted on 04/12/2008 9:56:37 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: Ready2go

Just for hte record, I had the church deacons pray over me and annoint me with oil in desperate attempt to heal when I was 16- I had the NDE at 17, and that’s when they operated.

Thank you for the words on the Jewish customs and hte relvences to prophesy and Jesus’ miracles- I’m always interested in such stuff, as our bible contains many deeper meanings than we realize.


69 posted on 04/12/2008 10:01:06 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: CottShop
Not so much easier, as necessary. That which we can find easily, even in our more misguided moments, is too simple, too base. That which is worthiest of our faith must be sought, usually with difficulty, and is never entirely found.

And I would suggest that wondering if there is Proof that God exists, is like a simple man denying even what is beyond the next hill, because he cannot see it with his own two eyes. Proofs are a useful, even essential, tool that we use in constructing mathematical theories, but they are far from the only tool, nor the most profound tool.

Your very question, whether there is "Proof that God exists" suggests you accept proofs as the Gold Standard of existence. That very suggestion is a dangerous concession to the faithless secularists, and should be avoided. There are other standards of existence, some more profound, than the logic of proofs, or the sight of ones own eyes.

70 posted on 04/12/2008 10:20:39 PM PDT by ThePythonicCow (By their false faith in Man as God, the left would destroy us. They call this faith change.)
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To: ThePythonicCow

[[Not so much easier, as necessary. That which we can find easily, even in our more misguided moments, is too simple, too base. That which is worthiest of our faith must be sought, usually with difficulty, and is never entirely found.]]

Great points Python-

[[Your very question, whether there is “Proof that God exists” suggests you accept proofs as the Gold Standard of existence.]]

They do? I assure you that you are mistaken abotu what I believe and accept. you have misinterpreted what I have said and why I said it.

[[That very suggestion is a dangerous concession to the faithless secularists, and should be avoided.]

I was asking how the accusations by the faithless that “IF ONLY” God would show Himself instead of being so hidden- could be fleshed out- It is not a mistake or unscriptural or irreligious to wonder and seek and philosophise, and many great scholars who were quite close to God have undertaken just such questions- and remember, Christ didn’t rebuff Thomas when Thomas demanded proof.


71 posted on 04/12/2008 10:52:23 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: CottShop
Thank-you. I was unclear in my thought and word. While I can not know your beliefs, they come through your posts here with great strength. I erred to suggest otherwise.

Allow me one more attempt to find words for my intuitions. I react with a bit of annoyance, as if to something that is confusing or misleading, to attempts to prove matters of faith. I have much the same reaction, from what I can tell, to arguments for intelligent design. I say this even though proofs and reasoning have been my stock in trade for a half century now.

In both cases, they feel like "reaching across the aisle" to me (in the pejorative sense commonly applied to "moderate" Republicans like McCain.) Meeting the faithless on their ground does little to inspire them to see your faith.

One does not arrive at faith by proof or persuasion.

Sure, we each will have doubts, perhaps in the manner that St Thomas had them. But if we distract ourselves too long building sand castles of logic and rhetoric to assuage those doubts, our faith will be fleeting, washed away in the next tide, because it was constructed of the wrong substance, in the wrong place.

Perhaps I am being too harsh. And certainly I, who depending on how one reads the dictionary definitions is an outright atheist (see my freeper profile for more detail here, if you like) ... certainly I am in no position to characterize your faith. Sometimes, being an outsider in an unusual position, I can catch perspectives that others miss; sometimes I couldn't hit the broad side of the barn with a sawed off shotgun if I was standing inside the barn.

So if something I say seems useful, you're welcome to use it. But if not ... best to stay out of any empty barns in which you find me sporting a shotgun.

72 posted on 04/13/2008 12:14:32 AM PDT by ThePythonicCow (By their false faith in Man as God, the left would destroy us. They call this faith change.)
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To: CottShop

ping.


73 posted on 04/13/2008 3:00:28 AM PDT by Beloved Levinite ("HOBo's already done more damage to race relations than Sharpton-Jacko combined.")
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To: CottShop

Thank you so much CottShop for sharing that awesome NDE experience with us.

You were one of the blessed one’s that got to come back to tell us, and all the lost about it. Hopefully you’re sharing your testimony with everyone you see.

God loves us sooooo much He doesn’t want any of us spending our eternity in Hell.

Thank you again for sharing it with us.


74 posted on 04/13/2008 9:25:33 AM PDT by Ready2go (Isa 5:20 Destruction is certain for those who say that evil is good and good is evil;)
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To: ThePythonicCow

[[In both cases, they feel like “reaching across the aisle” to me (in the pejorative sense commonly applied to “moderate” Republicans like McCain.)]]

I agree with you there- and beleive me, I’m not attempting to reach across the isles- I simply think though that God does infact give us reasons why He has remained hidden al lthese years- and I think it goes beyond the blind faith of Christians and htose who are close ot salvation-

[[Meeting the faithless on their ground does little to inspire them to see your faith.]

That is not my intent and I think if you had read carefully, you would see that.

[[One does not arrive at faith by proof or persuasion]

Here I will have to break ranks and dissagree with you- many peopel have set out to prove God wrong, and upon investigating science and finding many fingerprints of God’s work, their faith to take that final step has been strengthened. I’ll not apologize for digging deep into God’s words and works

[[best to stay out of any empty barns in which you find me sporting a shotgun.]]

I aint too worried


75 posted on 04/13/2008 9:38:40 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: Ready2go

Well like I said Ready- I don’t want ot read too much into what happened- I have my doubts abotu whether I jumped off this side of life or not- all I know was that I had a terrible vivid experience that is as clear today as it was 20+ years ago. My sister and I were talking today about some issues, and she brought up how hard Satan tries to cause peopel to be depressed and discouraged- and I know my experience really shook my faith for quite soem time, Not really sure why it happened to me, who or what caused it if anyone/being could have been just all synapses misfiring due to brain being affected by the fever for all I know- I don’t really dwell on it too much, except when the subject is brought up from time to time- but I think you’re right, I think God has spared my life several times (4 and counting) for a reason, and perhaps it’s to relay to others that hell aint no place to spend eternity- It’s amazign how many peopel think it’s goign to be a party time in hell, and I don’t know if statements liek that are just bluster, or not, but they’ve got a rude awakening coming if they don’t accept Christ I’m afraid-

People tell me to go to hell and I tell them- Already been there- once was too much.


76 posted on 04/13/2008 9:49:10 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: All

just came across somethign interesting about why God is hid- am going to have to readm ore tomorrow on it though- one reason might be that ‘too much too soon could be detrimental’ and that we are better off startign out in faith, and building from that solid foundation onwards- like a person startign out in mathematics- they don’t start off in algebra or geometry else they get overwhelemd and discouraged and turn back - they start off slow in math- then work their way up as they learn more of the dynamics as they can handle it.


77 posted on 04/13/2008 10:03:37 PM PDT by CottShop
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To: CottShop
Sounds good. You present your case well. Thanks, and take care.
78 posted on 04/13/2008 11:40:55 PM PDT by ThePythonicCow (By their false faith in Man as God, the left would destroy us. They call this faith change.)
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To: CottShop

That is the issue though, God gives us proof of his existence daily, however, many allow themselves to be blind. Creation is the very proof of the existence of God and man, with his prideful nature, cannot allow there to be an authority above the self. That is how we get theories such as evolution. It is only when we are willing to become a servant and not allow the prideful nature be the end all of our existence that God reveals himself to us fully and allows us to come to repentance.


79 posted on 04/14/2008 5:52:17 AM PDT by Dmitry Vukicevich (Pray for the Serbs because even Bush believes the idiocy.)
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To: CottShop

Thank you for this thread, which I have just read through this morning. Allow me to add my view, for what little it may be worth.

I believe that there is present proof enough for God’s existence, for those who are seeking Him; and there will never be enough proof for those who do not. I wonder what proof, or means of revelation, of God’s existence would be a sufficient showing such that no one could doubt His existence ever again. I suspect that there is nothing that could convince everyone, in our present human state.

God, however, could have created us is such a way that there would have been no questioning of Him. We could all function as automatons, praising and worshiping God in the manner He wished. I do not believe that God wanted that sort of creation, so He made us with inquiring, creative minds (in His image?) with an internal need for fulfillment, which could only be satisfied by faith in Him. Our worship and faith has to be from within ourselves in order to be of true value to God.

The example I have used in teaching my adult Sunday School class is a parent whose child brings a gift of an imperfectly made work of “art” or who, without having been asked, does a needed chore around the house, although perhaps imperfectly, or who just comes up to the parent and gives a hug and says “I love you.” The parent could have forced the child to do these things, but the reward to the parent would be missing. The true value is that the child does these things on his own, looking to show love and care for the parent. So it is, I believe, with us and God. He wants us to love and worship Him, but He is not going to force us to do so. And even though our love and worship may fall far short of how God ought truly to be honored, God recognizes it as our best efforts, and is pleased with us. The analogy can be carried on in other areas, but I hope you see my point.

I want to have the kind of faith that might, one day, make God smile.


80 posted on 04/14/2008 6:14:04 AM PDT by NCLaw441
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