Posted on 04/07/2008 1:28:28 PM PDT by CottShop
[[IMO to say that its because of free will is an excuse because God created EVERYTHING and isn’t bound by rules or laws. Why does he allow Satan to run loose?]]
It’s not an excuse- it’s one of THE main reasons- Free will demands evil be present, and as I’ve mentioend, the deepest love- the TRUE love, comes from being able to choose the evil, BUT instead choosing hte good- TRUE love comes Even IF evil severely affects us. Satan attempts to keep us from obeying God because Satan hates everythign of God- even us, and it is Satan’s desire to destroy everything God made- but thankfully, God restrains Satan, and mostly we are only buffetted and accosted, but not harmed to the point of death, and it is a TRUE love that can overcome all evil done to us and to submit our souls to God through the adversity. Selfish people only look for what God can do for htem and will freely choose not to follow God if things get tough- that is just the nature of sin and hte nature of mn who is born in sin.
Maybe look at it from the other direction: what if he did as you suggest, and created perfect beings with no free will, no choices, no mistakes. What would we be?
Without free will, we would be whatever God wanted us to be, with whatever characteristics He wanted us to have.
*My* limited brain understands how a human can not have free will, and at the same time be unable to make "wrong" choices. But that's because I live within this universe which is governed by logic.
God does not exist in our universe, however. As an all-powerful creator, I do not see how He could be constrained by the logic of this universe. An all-powerful being could achieve contradictory aims, could it not? So why can't God make beings who enjoy all the benefits of free will without any of the costs?
Is God constrained by the logic which governs our universe, or by some other force higher than Himself?
But one fisherman always had excellent healthy fish to market. Years rolled by and the fisherman died and his son took over the boat. The other fishermen of the village came aboard to ask how the father had always had such healthy fish to market.
The son said not a word, but opened the cover of the wet well. In the dim interior water a very large sea catfish was seen cruising the wet well.
The other fishermen were astonished at the sight and asked 'why a fisherman would keep such a monster in the wet well, didn't it eat some of the catch each trip?'
The new captain smiled and replied that it did eat many of the catch, but the ones not eaten kept swimming to keep from being eaten and thus the exertion kept them healthier than non-active fish. Evil works sort of like that. The Devil gets many, but the ones he doesn't get keep mindful of the Salvation God arranges by His Grace and they revert to it often and with humble hearts ... they keep movin'.
[[I ask why God could not create a universe where evil did not exist.]]
I must have misinderstood what you meant- God could have- and we’d all be mindless puppets obeying because we had no other choice but to obey.
[[Surely prohibiting evil does not achieve evil]]
Nope- it wouldn’t
[[So why didn’t God just prohibit evil in the first place, and use some other means to achieve all of His objectives that did not require the existence of evil?]]
I don’t think there really is any other way logically to produce TRUE love- in order for there to be True love, there must be the ability to choose. I don’t beleive there is any other way to produce that- you answered your own question in your response [[All of that is true, according to *our* conception of logic. As we perceive things, humans can not be programmed to love God and at the same time exercise a meaningful choice to love God.]] I see the direction you are attempting to go logically, after your statement, but I’m not sure it could work.
[[After all, He is the author of logic and thus can fashion the rules to whatever He wants. If God wanted a universe where 2 + 2 = both 4 and 5,]]
That would be a deceit- 2+2 can’t equal both without violating a natural law. If there are no laws, then everyhtign then becomes subjective, and htere are no objective answers, no absolutes by which to judge by.
[[Or is God constrained by our conception of logic, despite the fact that He is the one who designed logic itself?]]
That’s I beleive backwards- God isn’t constrained by our logic, He is only constrained by the logics He laid down and which we dimly understand. Speaking logically, the only logically possible solution was to create a logical world cosntrained by laws whereby everythign can be measured. No laws, no objective absolutes, no true love.
[[Is it possible for God to be constrained by His own creation?]]
Yes, God is constrained infact constrained by some of His characteristics and the created world. He was even cosntrained before the world was created.
Thanks for the PING
Great story
Thank you so much for this story. Evil is something I have been studying and praying over. It is part of God’s creation that I don’t “get.”
This is a direct answer to the questions I have been pondering.
I am very blessed to have you as a FRiend! I am very blessed by FreeRepublic!
Very interesting. The idea of a constrained God seems much more sensible to me, and would explain how He could create a universe where evil exists.
Something troubles me about this idea, though. Perhaps "troubles" isn't the right word...maybe I should say something about this idea makes me curious.
If it is possible for God to be constrained, either by his own nature or by his creation, that seems to suggest that there are "rules" which even He must obey. This further suggests that something created those rulea, or at least that something created the order under which God is constrained.
What do you suppose that "something" was?
[[As an all-powerful creator, I do not see how He could be constrained by the logic of this universe.]]
He isn’t constrained by natural law- Creation itself shows that to be true- He ca only be constrained by his attributes
[[An all-powerful being could achieve contradictory aims, could it not?]]
So long as they didn’t violate His complete Holiness.
[[So why can’t God make beings who enjoy all the benefits of free will without any of the costs?]]
Because hten, as I said before, we run into the problems of absolutes and subjective itnerpretations. Sin has it’s root in defiance to God and God’s Holiness and God’s Soveriegn right to be God. God’s Holiness can not accept sin, and hte only way to experience sin, is htrough free choice. If, as you say, we could ‘experience free will (sin against God) without the punishement of sin, that woiuld mean that God Himself can allow sin and that nothign needs to repudiate sin, which would further mean that sin was of no consequence. God’s Holiness shows us that sin does have consequences- must have consequences, must be dealt with. If sin had no consequences, then it would not be sin, and thus there would be no chance for us to make a ‘free choice’ to sin or not to sin because sin doesn’t exist because consequences do not mean a thing because God just simply ignores them and allows them.
I’ll work on htis more.
[[If it is possible for God to be constrained, either by his own nature or by his creation, that seems to suggest that there are “rules” which even He must obey.]]
If He is pure Holiness, which we know that He is, then yes- there are rules that He is constrained by. I think the word ‘obey’ though doesn’t belong here, as God is incapable of sin being that He is purely Holy.
[[This further suggests that something created those rulea, or at least that something created the order under which God is constrained.]]
Not necessarily. This would suggest a beginning and a thought or plan of action, with a set of instructions, and yet we know that God has always existed, and has always existed as purely Holy. Eternity is a concept too hard to grasp, at least for me, so we’re beginning to delve into an area I can’t fathom really.
To use the same parable, suppose that instead of using a catfish, the fisherman could have introduced a mild electric shock to the wet well to keep the fish moving. The shock would be strong enough to motivate all the caught fish, but not so powerful that any of the fish would die or would otherwise be less marketable.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the fisherman to use the electric shock, and thus save all the fish, instead of using the catfish, and losing some of his product?
Furthermore, if the fisherman could easily afford the electric shocker, wouldn't we question his judgment if he still chose to use the catfish? And wouldn't we be even more confused if the fisherman could have chosen a painless method of motivation, but nevertheless allowed a catfish to swallow up some of his hard-earned catch?
‘Second guessing God’ is a dangerous game ... besides, looking for the ‘exception clause’ is a neat trick evil plays with the too loose mind. He used it in the Garden with Eve and continues to use it with every religion that man fabricates. When Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again, Nic tried the exception clause approach and the response Jesus gave (in John chptr three) is instructive ... God sets the rules but won’t force you to follow them even when it means your own destruction will result.
Yes, this is an area where my head starts to hurt and I have trouble even coming up with words to express what I am thinking. Perhaps these are the areas where having faith is really important.
I agree with your statement that God is sovereign over all and all of the universe.He is in control He cannot do wrong. I other words if God can do no wrong why am I responsible for anything which occurs. It might seem his sovereignty eliminates any responsibility.
So, did the Devil make us do it, or did the devil make me do it? Or did God make me do it? Remember God did not create anything which was not good. He cannot even look with approval upon sin (Heb 6"8). God does not tempt (James 1:13). So if God did not make me or the Devil do it, then who did?
Remember God (creator of all) did not make the Devil. He created Lucifer who decided per his free will to disobey God). Freedom is a good thing, if properly asserted. However, to exert ones will against God is to offend infinite justice. (God is just. God is merciful. God is kind. God is love.)
Remember in the Garden as each day closed, God asserted that 'it was good'. So as Adam, created innocent and perfect, but with the attribute of free will, God told Adam in Genesis 1:4, 10. 12, 18,21, 25.) After the last day God stated, "It was very good."(Gen. 1:31).
One thing God gave creatures was a good power called 'free will'. In Gen.2"16, God said, "....You are free.....". We, men, intuitively understand that freedom is a wonderful thing. Only those who usurp the will unto their own desires see freedom as bad. People do not stage marches against freedom.
However, the power of moral free choice entails the ability either to choose good (the will of God) or reject the will of God. Freedom makes evil possible.
If God made creatures free, and if it is good to be free, then the origin of evil is freedom misapplied. God is morally accountable for giving the good thing called free will, but He is not morally responsible for all the evil we do with our freedom. In brief, God made the fact of freedom; we are responsible for the acts of freedom. The fact of freedom is good. The acts of freedom, when it violates Gods will, is what we call evil.
Because of sin (a violation of Gods' infinite justice) must be dealt with consistent with the nature of God, only an infinit penalty could provide remediation. You and I, finite creatures, could never pay for our transgressions against a Holy God.
So, Sin, and our specific sins, were ordered remediated from before the foundation of the world, that God should become a man, live the Law, die, according to the scriptures, and resurrected, according to the scriptures, to pay a penalty you and I could never pay.
So, Adam and his wife were driven from perfect Eden, and a Cherubium placed at its entrance with a flaming sword which revolved all around (Gen. 3:24). The Bible says because of this act, the entire universe groans, it is so objectionable to God.
And the story goes on to the Revelation of Jesus Christ and you and I (believers) are back in the Garden, our offenses reconsiled, despite what we have done. Back to the Garden where we may eat freely of every fruit, and yes, even from the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil (Rev.22). The wages of sin had been paid, and the gift of God realized by an Omipotent, Sovereign, Loving, Merciful, Longsuffering, Just God, who provided the only way to life eternal.
Gen.21:4...And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall ther be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.
What makes it dangerous? Is it because asking these questions may lead us to answers that God doesn't like, or because God doesn't even want us to ask questions in the first place?
Second guessing is not asking questions ... God actually encourages us to do that but even in this there are guidelines to offer you protection from deception. Satan is smarter than any human and can deceive in astonishing ways. Second guessing is ‘telling God how He should do to do it better’, and the foolishness of that is immediately evident when you realize we are so very limited in our input data.
you are being redundant!
Damned if I know!
I’m just some old clay myself.
God didn't create logic. He simply appreciates and values it as a sentient rational being.
"Why couldn't an all-powerful God, who created the universe and all the rules governing it, make it so that we could simulataneously enjoy free will AND not have the ability to make the wrong choices?"
Robots.
Gen 1:26:27, Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, ...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."" God created folks as sentient rational beings, exactly like Him. Note that He came here Himself in person and acknowledged that. John 10:34:36 "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[Psalm 82:6]? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?"
"An all powerful God, by definition, can achieve any objective by any means."
God is not defined. God is a person that came in person to teach who He is, what He thinks and what He is concerned with. He certainly does not value the attainment of objectives by any means.
"Why didn't God make the world so that Adam and Eve could have free will, but at the same time make them unable to stain humanity with their mistakes?"
The story of Adam and Eve is parable. There's no such thing as the stain and the fall of man. Nothing ever changed from Gen 1:26:27. Ezkiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
The Doctrine of Original Sin and the fall of man are hte creation of Augustine and the Council of Orange. They're contradicted by all of Ezekiel 18 and all of John 9. In John 9:3 God said, that neither the blind man, nor his parents sinned. The blind man acted righteous throughout. The discussion between the blind man and the Pharisees ends as follows: John 9:28 "Then they hurled insults at him and said, "You are this fellow's disciple! We are disciples of Moses! We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don't even know where he comes from."
The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."
To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out. "
It was replayed at the Council of Orange.
"according to *our* conception of logic"
Logic is logic. It is unique and singular always and everywhere.
"If God wanted a universe where 2 + 2 = both 4 and 5, He could make it so."
No.
"I ask why God could not create a universe where evil did not exist."
His purpose was to give the gift of life as a being equivalent to Himself. That included the power to create life. It wasn't a robotics class project.
And yet, that is what intercessory prayer is.
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