The Once And For All Terri Schiavo's NOT Vegetative Thread!

Terri's Fight ^ | 3/18/05 | jonboy

[jonboy]

I get SOOOOO tired and exasperated at so many of these people talking about Terri as though she is vegetative. I lost a friend last November who was in a vegetative state for 4 days before she died. Her eyes were open, she was breathing by machine, and there was nothing and I mean nothing alive about her. It was one of the most wrenching things I've ever experienced.

For those who HAVE NOT familiarized themselves with Terri's situation, follow the links and educate yourselves. I'm sick of people speaking on this forum about her who have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE about her situation. Your UNINFORMED opinion is NOT needed, NOT wanted, and NOT helpful. Watch the videos on the links provided and you will see a severely brain damaged woman responding on a very basic level. You will NOT see a woman who is vegetative or in a coma. If you want to have Terri killed anyway due to her problems, just be consistent and say that you would like ALL people like her killed as well. And don't say we should defer to the family. THE FAMILY OF THIS WOMAN IS BEING SHUT OUT. And this is being done by the man who though still "technically" married to her has fathered two children out of wedlock and is living with their mother.

It could not be more obvious that this woman needs more time. I heard the woman on CNN earlier today saying that Terri was going to be given pain medication. PAIN medication!!! Where are the questions from the evil brain dead media? Why does a "vegetative" woman in a "coma" need PAIN medication?

As the situation stands, Terri's parents contend that her tragedy began under mysterious circumstances, that her husband may have had a violent past that she may have been victim to, and that Michael Schiavo has motive to want her dead beyond his stated desire to "keep her wishes." Furthermore, they think that Terri may be rehabilitated to a point if given the opportunity (which thus far she has not). WHY will they not be allowed to take care of this woman?! If she is in a vegetative state, what the heck difference will it make to her anyway? THINK people on the evil or uninformed side of this!!!

Follow the links:

Terri and her Mother

Swab Test

Terri Responding to Music

Tracking a Balloon for Dr. Cranford

Asked to Open Her Eyes

"How's Your Cold?"

[attiladhun2]

The swine ought to roast in hell for all eternity. I couldn't imagine wanting my wife to be starved to death under any circumstance. A husband is supposed to be a PROTECTOR to his spouse, not her executioner. The spirit of Jack "the dripper" Kevorkian is alive and well and walks to and fro upon the land, looking to devour all who do not measure up to the minimum "quality of life" standard.

[Gondring]

West Michigan widow can relate to Terri Schiavo situation http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3098336&nav=0RceXfuU

(Allegan County, March 18, 2005, 7:16 p.m.) The Terri Schiavo case in Florida is very familiar to one West Michigan woman, as she faced a similar court battle 18 years ago.

From Mary Martin's perspective, there was no gray area to her case. Her husband Michael told her he didn't want to be kept alive by a feeding tube. But to others involved with the care of patients, the answers aren't as black and white.

A train crash in January 1987 in Allegan County tore Mary Martin's family and life apart.

"We were pushed 986 feet down the track. That killed my seven-year-old daughter, Melanie, and severely brain-injured Michael," she told 24 Hour News 8.

For the next eight years, Mary battled to have the feeding tube that kept her husband alive removed. "We had talked about it many times. It was really his decision and I was trying to fulfill a promise that I made to him," she said.

The battle pitted Martin and her children against her husband's sister and parents who fought to keep the feeding tube in.

The state Supreme Court eventually decided the feeding tube could not be removed, as Michael Martin hadn't expressed his desires in writing.

Michael died in 2001, the result of an infection.

In Florida, Michael Schiavo's efforts to remove his wife's feeding tube have reopened some old wounds for Mary Martin. "I know what this man is going through. And until people have walked in our shoes, they should not judge," she said.

But to others who play a role in the lives of patients - like doctors - these cases present a modern day dilemma.

"It really isn't that easy, because medicine is dedicated to preserving life," Dr. James Applegate, a family physician, told 24 Hour News 8.

In both of these cases, Michael remained in at least a semi conscious state, as is Terri. But whether their reactions to voices and other stimuli was conscious or unconscious, is hard to know.

"In cases that sort of lie in this gray area, we never want to make an error. The analogy I use is with the death penalty - you never want to make a mistake because you can't get it back," adds Dr. Applegate.

Both Mary Martin and Dr. Applegate agree on one thing - people need to sit down with family members and their doctors to discuss their wishes early on, and avoid having those decisions end up in the hands of a judge.

[RPTMS]

Put that carrot where the son doesn't shine, you worthless POS!

[RPTMS]

son=sun

[Gondring]

Only her husband's WORD against all.

Not "against all"...

And if you can't understand that a husband might want to see his wife's wishes carried out, then I don't know what hope there is for getting through to you that giving her parents custody is NO SOLUTION AT ALL!

That's like saying that if I keep a journal and one day decide to throw it out, then my parents could come and say "we want custody of it" and make me turn it over to them!

I bet you were one of those who supported the million-dollar offer to buy custody of Mrs. Schiavo like she was so much chattel...eh?

Well, at least your handle is right.

[Gondring]

By the way, I think it is a bit obtuse to see those films and not see that she is responding to outside stimuli

And you are being a bit obtuse in ignoring that persons in a persistent vegetative state CAN and often DO respond to outside stimuli (see my post above above)...the question is whether it's a conscious response....

[Saundra Duffy]

Bump for Terri. Tonight I was talking with church friends. To the one, we all support Terri. To the one. Thank God for our churches and for Christian brothers and sisters. Oh, how the other side hates us.

[Gondring]

Wow..good point how the Republicans have strayed away from the traditional position of caring about our rights (right to die, for example, or other civil rights violations like being UNJUSTLY on death row)...

...whereas it's now the liberals left to play the protector role. Oh joy. Where have all the real conservatives gone?

[Gondring]

Cool. There are too many people on here who are supporting the Schindlers against Mrs. Schiavo... I'm glad your church is supporting her rights! :-)

What denomination is it, if I may ask?

[UCANSEE2]

Why do you say this video is bogus, just out of curiosity?

Because, if that poster admitted the video shows Terri is aware, that poster would have to admit having made a mistake. The close-minded never admit to mistakes.

[UCANSEE2]

And you are being a bit obtuse in ignoring that persons in a persistent vegetative state CAN and often DO respond to outside stimuli (see my post above above)...the question is whether it's a conscious response....

So, if she said the words HELP ME, or I WANT TO LIVE, would you consider her conscious?

[jonboy]

From Patricia Heaton's statement yesterday:

Fifteen years ago Terri's husband testified in a medical malpractice suit he filed: "I believe in the vows I took with my wife: through sickness and health, for richer or poor. I married my wife because I love her and I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I'm going to do that."

But after being awarded $800,000 for Terri's rehabilitation and lifetime care and $640,000 for his loss, Michael had a do-not-resuscitate order placed on his wife's chart and repeatedly denied her treatment for infections. He now lives with a woman by whom he has fathered children.

Other points:

The parents contend that abuse or neglect may have been present when Terri collapsed in the first place with Michael present which he COULD be trying to cover up.

Michael's story changed substantively enough to warrent at least healthy skepticism and a legitimate outside investigation.

A Nobel prize nominee Dr. William Hammesfahr issued a statement saying he had examined Terri Schiavo and believes her injury, hypoxic encephalopathy, is a type of stroke that he treats every day with success.

"There are many approaches that would help Terri Schiavo," he said. "I know, because I had the opportunity to personally examine her, her medical records, and her X-rays. It is time to help Terri, instead of just warehousing her. She would have benefited from treatment years ago, but it is not to late to start now."

Are the parents and other family members worthy of the benefit of the doubt if this seemingly compromised man of dubious character and motive is? If not, why not? Why do so many people BLINDLY seem to trust this man whose word and actions have been inconsistent and suspect in the past? Why is not every fact in the case not being scrutinized very carefully by another party not associated with Michael Schiavo? From his perspective, this may very well a "right to protect my butt from prosecution" case rather than what he is stating for the record. If she is in the state that many seem to think she is, let it be settled to the parents clear conscience. The dubious intentions of a compromised man should not be the final answer to whether this woman lives or dies.

[jonboy]

I won't believe that she is Vegetative just because groups on his side tell me she is. The bottom line is that if an objective group without possible compromised motives steps in and after a full battery of tests, determines that she is in the state claimed, fine. Let her parents then decide for her what to do. This man should never be allowed to make a decision like this under the current set of circumstances.

[Gondring]

And yet, you post a logically fallacious argument to support that view. Interesting.

[tertiary01]

So you have seen Terri's MRI and PET scan? Let me know when they show up. I suppose in your world, if a patients' observed and assessed behaviors don't match their tests and scans, then they must die.

[Gondring]

Why did the intake x-rays show no signs of abuse? Why is this abuse thing coming up now, when the Schindlers had all this time to view the bone scan info? It's called "tactics"...

And you cite Hammesfahr...? He's considered quite the looney, you know... And not Nobel-nominated by peers (a politician made a mock nomination, but that's not the same as a legitimate one).

From http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1358370/posts?page=17#17:

Dr. Hammesfahr's "Nobel Prize nominations" are clever deceptions that do not measure up to the hard reality of truth. He should not be cited as receiving such nominations, because, in fact, they do not exist. His "nominations" are from uninformed individuals, in this case a legislator, or organizations who are not eligible to nominate anyone for the Nobel Prize in Medicine, any more than I am eligible to nominate someone for the King of the World.

The actual nominations for this extraordinary recognition of intellectual endeavor, the Nobel Prize, are KEPT SECRET FOR 50 YEARS, so anyone using the term "Nobel Prize nominee" is NOT supported by the Nobel Prize Committee.

and from court documents (I added the bolding):

[Dr. Hammesfarhr] admitted that vasodilation therapy and hyberbaric therapy were intended to increase blood and oxygen supply to damaged brain tissue to facilitate repair of such tissue. These therapies cannot replace dead tissue. Although the physicians are not in complete agreement concerning the extent of Mrs. Schiavo's brain damage, they all agree that the brain scans show extensive permanent damage to her brain. The only debate between the doctors is whether she has a small amount of isolated living tissue in her cerebral cortex or whether she has no living tissue in her cerebral cortex.

[Gondring]

So you are like the Schindlers, who want to deny her sedation?

[Gondring]

They have to keep repeating lies to prove their argument, so that must mean the truth supports Terri.

This is fallacious reasoning.

Let me illustrate... Suppose I were to claim that Aldeberan IX has no intelligent life, and the only way I can prove it is to claim that an Orion slave girl told me she was exiled on Aldeberan IX and there was no life.

Well, by your reasoning, there MUST be life on Aldeberan IX, since I could support my position only through lies.

I know that "Proof by Assertion" is the pro-Schindler/anti-"Terri" crowd's favored approach, but I prefer logic and truth.

[tertiary01]

Sorry, it should have ended with Terri's "pro life supporters". I'm just saying one side has to manufacture lies and spread half truths in order to justify it's position to the public. Michael needs to put his money where his mouth is but he is another one who hides behind the "right to privacy".

What do you think of the systemic looting of the estates of dependent adults by the very system that is paid to protect them. This happens in California too. Do you think you will be immune from this too.

Maybe you should put your superior analytical skills to work working to improve peoples lives, rather than end them, or in a few years you may have no forums in which to voice you opinions. The slope is getting real slippery, and it applies to all our rights.... And there is no right to kill an innocent person in the Bill of Rights.... And until a few years ago, nurses and physicians were there to promote life, not end it.

I had never seen an intentional denial of food and water to an an aphasic disabled person while working in geriatric nursing for 25 years.

[tertiary01]

You also forget all about the information on Terri that the husband of five months intentionally omits, which you may research for yourself on these threads. You never answered where the MRI and PET scans are, that would confirm the original diagnosis of PVS. The failure to disclose the lack of...is disinformation pure and simple, and Greer, Felos and Michael are masters of duping the public.