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To: Poohbah

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1158696&mesg_id=1158713&page=

wow, the folks at DU agree with you...amazing how liberals are so quick to throw our troops under the bus.

Kinda reminds me of their stance against this war...he'd still be filling mass graves.

Saddam wasn't so bad after all...LOL

I wonder how much key info Graner and Co. pulled out of these terrorists? How many American lives were saved?


29 posted on 01/17/2005 1:07:15 PM PST by Jon Alvarez
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To: Jon Alvarez
exactly...

Huh?

You write something completely in error, then when corrected you say, “Exactly!” as if you knew it all along?

Anyway, the United States military does not need to cite the Geneva Convention as a reason that its soldiers should refrain from organizing forced group masturbation sessions and naked flesh piles of prisoners.

We are supposed to be the civilized side in this war with barbarism.

Plus, his actions were totally counterproductive and completely gay.

30 posted on 01/17/2005 1:13:28 PM PST by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: Jon Alvarez; Long Cut; CheneyChick; BlueLancer; Pukin Dog; hchutch; Constitution Day; ...
wow, the folks at DU agree with you...amazing how liberals are so quick to throw our troops under the bus.

I spent eight years in the Marine Corps; I left the Corps as a Sergeant. Yeah, I generally want to throw the s**tbirds under the bus. I have no use for insubordinate trash like Graner. I am astonished that a so-called "conservative" thinks that "good order and discipline" are "nice to have" things in the military.

BTW, almost all the folks I pinged to this post are presently on active duty, or have served--and they all disagree with you.

When those who actually have served or are presently serving tell you you're wrong on this issue, it would be a very good idea to rethink your premises, noob.

Kinda reminds me of their stance against this war...he'd still be filling mass graves.

Wrong. My only complaint with the Iraq war was that we took far too long to go about actually doing it--it is something that we should've done many years earlier.

One can simultaneously (a) support this war and (b) expect our soldiers to conduct themselves as soldiers, not as brigands. Indeed, if you wish to win wars, a disciplined army is essential. I cannot fathom why some wish to reward (and thus encourage) severe breaches of discipline within the military, unless they intend to ensure that we lose wars.

I wonder how much key info Graner and Co. pulled out of these terrorists?

None. The prisoners under the charge of Graner and his buddies, skank hos, and subordinates weren't terrorists; they were petty criminals. You would already know that fact if you'd read the Taguba Report--which again raises the question of when "willfully stupid ignorance" became "a legitimate point of view."

How many American lives were saved?

Zero. How much damage was done to the good order and discipline of the US Army? Lots.

32 posted on 01/17/2005 1:24:38 PM PST by Poohbah (God must love fools. He makes so many of them...)
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To: Jon Alvarez; Poohbah
"I wonder how much key info Graner and Co. pulled out of these terrorists? How many American lives were saved?"

After having sat through over 50+ hours of testimony, marked and read hundreds of exhibits, and examined hundreds of pages of more documents that were not given to the court that were produced during the investigations, there is NO credible evidence that this posse was given any instructions to do anything of the kind. Unless you believe that the colonels and the generals were coming to visit this young corporal personally to tell him to beat up these prisoners, all of the middle-echelon leaders .. the Staff Sergeant and the Sergeants .. who have already pled guilty and been sentenced stated that no such instructions came from anyone in the chain of command. The only ones that Graner could point to specifically who told him that it would be helpful for him and his gang to "soften them up" came from low-ranking .. E-4 and below .. personnel who had NO standing in his chain of command.

Secondly, not one of the detainees who were abused .. against, it should be noted, a written SOP/rules of engagement specifically laying out what could and could not be done to detainees .. were there for intelligence purposes. Every one had been picked up and was being incarcerated for "common crimes": theft, assault, attempted rape (Iraqi-on-Iraqi), and .. in the case of one female who was forced to strip so this "fine upstanding young soldier" and his buddies could get some nude photos .. prostitution. So, for no more purpose than their own enjoyment, they successfully disobeyed standing orders against maltreatment for no reason at all. Testimony came out that specifically stated that Graner was, in general, someone who didn't obey orders or regulations: he had been repeatedly called to the carpet for uniform violations, wearing unauthorized patches on his uniform, haircut violations, and disrespect to senior NCOs and officers. Simply put, he did what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it, and d@mn the leadership.

Third, he repeated violated the posted directives in the confinement area that no cameras were permitted in the cell areas, in the hard site, or within Abu Ghraib prison. He also violated procedures by allowing his girlfriend, Lynndie England .. a person who had no standing as either an MP or an MI .. to enter the secured areas for no more reason than to have their pictures taken together.

Fourth, the pictures quite clearly show someone who was enjoying his work. Despite his right to not testify, when the trial began, his attorney stated that he was so confident of his legal standing that Graner wanted to testify to tell his side of the story. Needless to say, he did not do so .. at least, until the sentencing portion of the case when he made an UNSWORN statement, which is not evidence, merely a "here's who I am, don't punish me for what I did" kind of statement.

Finally, discipline is the cast-iron rod that holds units together. This was an undisciplined vigilante posse who decided that, because they could do these things, they would. (Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Isn't that what Clinton said for his excuse?) From almost Day 1 in the military, you're trained to obey orders, but you're also told that YOU .. personally and individually .. only have to obey legal orders. Probably the only thing that Graner truthfully said in the proceedings was that he knew that these were illegal and, in his words, immoral orders. Yet he said that he obeyed them nonetheless. As a Corporal, a non-commissioned officer in the military, that, in and of itself, is enough to demand some serious jail time. The old "I was only obeying orders" died at Nuremberg.

When push comes to shove, if you were arrested for assault or theft, and not yet prosecuted or sentenced, would YOU or your children want to be incarcerated in this man's jail?

He's a uniformed bully .. one of the few times that I've actually seen one of those archetypical "jackbooted thugs" that a lot of people on FreeRepublic are always so worried about. Yet it is those same people who seem to be defending this scum and his unrestrained posse.


Samauri Court Reporter

40 posted on 01/17/2005 9:13:28 PM PST by BlueLancer (Der Elite Møøsënspåånkængrüppen ØberKømmändø (EMØØK))
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