Of course the standard liberal/socialist answer is NOTHING. Your answer would be "Doing NOTHING never solved a problem."
Liberals always "talk" the talk but never walk the walk. It's so easy to spot one.
Posted on 12/20/2004 7:09:37 PM PST by mlmr
I had a friend who recently attacked me for changing from a liberal to a conservative. I discussed this at:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1287896/posts
Recently we exchanged emails and I would like to have Freepers with better minds than mine, weigh in on the discussion.
Here it goes:
Friend As for the impasse we have reached, I really don't believe you understand my side. You said to me on the phone that you had been where I am am now but if you ever really had been, you could not have changed into someone whose beliefs about the world would allow them to support the terrorising,killing and maiming of civilians in another country.
This does not value the lives of others and turns people of different cultures and faiths against the West. I just wish you could value the lives of foreigners and people of other faiths as much as you do that of Americans. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. America and Britain attacked a country which never attacked us and which, by the way, did not have'weapons of mass destruction, they simply had weapons -- the country with weapons of mass destruction is the US, which is exactly why America feels safe to attack other countries at will.
I too am sorry our friendship has reached an impasse but what we used to enjoy were our conversations but there's no point conversing if we can't discuss what's important to us, and that is the point we have reached.
Me I am happy to discuss my political perspective with you… I just don’t think that it is useful. You are someone I see each…decade, who I enjoy and with whom I have a history. Over time our perspectives, values and beliefs have diverged.
Me First difference and it is an inarguable difference …is that you evidently believe that people who change their worldview from the perspective you support, actually don’t change because they really did not believe as you believe. My experience tells me otherwise. I work daily with people who have changed foundational worldviews.
It is interesting because other folks I have talked with who have also experienced this sea-change politically, have talked about how dismissive their former peers are about their past commitments. Another interesting issue discussed is how people on the Left demonize people who do not agree with their perspective. The Right, in my experience and research, by most accounts, considers those on the Left to be misguided. I have seen it time and time again … “If they could only really understand what is at stake…” Those on the Left however, consider conservatives to be …essentially …evil. It is a phenonomenon that I have discussed for years with friends and have had much experience.
You may not believe that I could have changed so much, and it would be fruitless to try to defend myself by trotting out past credentials. It is inarguable for it is a matter of perceptions.
The demonization that occurs when you accuse me of supporting maiming, killing, and terrorizing is fallacious. I do not “support” these things although I do know that sadly, these can be the byproducts of something I do support, which is the war effort.
I don’t think that I need to trot out my former credentials as a pacificst and Mennonite Church member…but I can type quite a resume of anti-war and paficist activities, if need be. At the same time I remember not understanding how anyone could not “see” the great evil that the Gulf War, among other actions that I protested.
Issues that I would like to address:
Leftist fundamentalism
Many have switched to conservatism
The statements: 1. "I just wish you could value the lives of foreigners and people of other faiths as much as you do that of Americans."
2. "America and Britain attacked a country which never attacked us and which, by the way, did not have'weapons of mass destruction, they simply had weapons."
Any other rational and cogent point. I am not looking for a bashing, I am looking for pointed rebuttals and expansion of the point.
Thank you fellow Freepers.
How does this person feel about abortion? Seriously. You could shoot them down in the first sentence.
this argument is getting old and pathetic. Bush was relying on the best information at the time. Read him some of the quotes from major democrats, including Clinton, before Bush even became President. Bush was told it was a slam dunk. Would you friend prefer someone that ignored that information?
You may point out that Putin warned the US that he had received information that Sadham was planning a major strike in the States but I doubt it would help.
,,, what, you made a choice?! That works if you want to dispose of an unborn life, doesn't it? Surely your friend should apply come consistency and tolerance for your desire to be diverse?
I would reply that we as Americans value the lives of other citizens so much that we are willing to put our men and women in harms way to free them from the tyrannical, cruel, murdering bastard dictators they are living under. I'm sure some freeper here could lead you to the poll that was done in Iraq where some 80% of the respondents were glad the US had come in. Saddam Hussein was an evil, murdering SOB who needed to be dealt with. The weapons of mass destruction thing is an excuse by the left. It is IMPARITIVE to our national security that we have a friendly pro-western government in the middle east. That's why we're at war and long term it is going to save many many many lives. Lives of people in the US and of those all over the middle east.
Had at least four.
Thank you.
1. "I just wish you could value the lives of foreigners and people of other faiths as much as you do that of Americans."
Saddam Hussein used poison gas on the Kurds. The American Left said nothing. Saddam tortured people. The Left said nothing. The Taliban killed Afghanis and oppressed women in unbelievable ways. The left said nothing.
Freedom and self-rule have come to these people -- because the Republican party of the US values the lives of foreigners.
2. "America and Britain attacked a country which never attacked us and which, by the way, did not have'weapons of mass destruction, they simply had weapons."
For about 10 years, American jets supported the "no-fly" zone, as mandated by the UN. During that time, Iraq repeatedly launched attacks against US fighter jets. That's an act of war. Since we were attacked, we were justified in responding.
if that does't seal the deal then mention Kosovo and ask how they were a threat.
As far as valuing the lives of foreigners, we have conducted a war in which we have paid more attention to avoiding civilian (and even combatant) casualties than in any previous conflict. We use smart bombs rather than dumb, indiscriminate, iron. We refrain from striking our enemies when they hide among civilians. In WW II (a supposedly "good" war), we accepted mass civilian casualities as regrettable but unavoidable.
First, I really am not a prude but honest to God, I have no idea what to say to that. Read back as far as you want on my posts so you know that abortion is not my main issue (I was riley1992 before this). I still cannot believe this. I do believe you, I just can't really wrap my mind around it.
You said to me on the phone that you had been where I am am now but if you ever really had been, you could not have changed into someone whose beliefs about the world would allow them to support the terrorising,killing and maiming of civilians
You don't need to get overly religious at all here. Ask this person, and do it without asking any other questions at all in the mail, how they can justify this statement and yet stand sanctimoniously and proclaim to be the life giving voice for all of humanity. Don't include any other questions or points or this one will get lost intentionally in the easier ones. This is a biggie. Make her answer it.
As a caveat, gauge seriously how much of a friendship you have. If it doesn't really matter to you, persue this (not just what I'm saying but your argument in general). If it does matter to you, really matter, you might want to let it go. Only you really know that one.
I appreciate your response. It may be wasted bits, but I have to do it and do it well.
This gal is having a cow becasue she KNOWS my IQ. Her father tried to convince me to join MENSA. She is over her head because only STUPID people are conserative. This is serious cognitive dissonance.
Of course the standard liberal/socialist answer is NOTHING. Your answer would be "Doing NOTHING never solved a problem."
Liberals always "talk" the talk but never walk the walk. It's so easy to spot one.
Thank you for your insight, The friendship will probably never be salvaged, but I need to do this...I cannot really explain it.
I know several women from my leftist days who had between four and twenty-five abortions.
Can I share with you I had the same experience this summer with one of my BEST friends, (a real close Thelma and Louise type friendship minus the criminality)? And almost the same conversation? I was a liberal leftist until recently and have lost friends because of it and my own sister says she now despises me and won't respect my new views.
Maybe you could let your friend know that there are many liberals who have gone to the right because of the hateful actions of our liberal brethren. That we didn't just drift to the right without reason or purpose, we were DRIVEN there by the hatred of the left for America, the disparaging of our troops, and the refusal to recognize terrorism where it really exists. War and terrorism are NOT the same, and she/he needs to recognize that. Unfortunately, liberals don't seem to be able to understand this distinction. Terrorists deliberately target civies, the more the better. The soldiers/marines/, etc. try to avoid civilian casualties, though it is sometimes unavoidable, particularly with an enemy that will stand fight from schools and mosques and use children as shields. Tell her/him thousands, maybe millions of us have undergone the same sea-change, we are September 12th Republicans, but better late than never. Tell her to please read David Horowitz for a better understanding, watch Dennis Miller and google actor Ron Silver's remarks on this change from liberal to conservative. I don't know if this helps---I know you can get more cogent arguments on the specifics of what you asked from others on this thread, but I wanted to offer you my support and validation of your situation.
What do you wish America to do in Iraq?
Saddam Hussein is alive and well and under American control. Is it your wish that America return Saddam Hussein to power in Iraq? If so, that can be done rather easily.
After the first Gulf War with Iraq in 1991 ended, an official cease-fire agreement was reached between our two countries. Officially, we were still at war, but as long as Iraq complied with the treaty, military hostilities were ended.
The failure of Iraq to account for their Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) was a major violation of that treaty.
It does not matter if Iraq no longer has those weapons in country. They failed to account for the location or document the destruction of these weapons. This was in violation of the treaty.
Any violation of the cease-fire treaty, was and is a legal and valid reason to resume war-status hostilities between America and Iraq.
Saddam Hussein had only one choice. Fully comply with the terms of the cease-fire treaty, or America would remove him from power.
Everyone on the left, and I mean everyone, picked up on Bubba's talking points and ran with them.
George Bush's information WAS VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL to Bubba's information, yet, all of a sudden, it's wrong to go after Iraq.
One other point -- and one that I have to deal with on an ongoing basis: your friend has to at least respect you. He/she may disagree with your views, but you can demand that he/she at least respect you as an individual.
You are a blessing. Thank you. I think that the left thinks that "conversions" to the Right are singular episodes of psychosis.
Start by rejecting their premise. I find it ironic that liberals accuse conservatives of holding on to the past and never moving forward, but that is exactly what they do when they refuse to see other than what they want to see.
Saddam was a thorn in the side of the U.S. and as long as he was challenging the sanctions and seeing them erode in his favor, as long as he was funding martyr's, as long as he was challenging the no fly zones, as long as he was interested in weapons and sharing them, as long as he allowed safe haven to our enemies, as long as he would not come clean as required in UN resolutions, he could not be ignored. His history with UN resolutions, and treatment of his people were compelling enough arguments, but the MSM picked up WMD as the only reason we took action.
Ask your friend if the U.S. Constitution is a document he respects and wants to continue living under in the spirit of original intent - limited federal government.
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