Posted on 12/10/2004 6:11:06 PM PST by 6ppc
KEYSTROKE LOGGER!
NOTE: THIS POST IS A PERSONAL OPINION AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED LEGAL ADVICE.
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I'm glad I got a ping to your post.
I assume because you posted this you are asking for very honest informatiion and opinions. With that in mind, here goes...
1. It doesn't matter what religion this man is. Anyone who thinks she/he is having a "serious relationship" with someone they "met online;" is either ignorant, a liberal, very immature or a combination of all three.
2. She is an adult. She is free to make her own mistakes.
3. "His parents have been living in Saudi Arabia for over 20 years." Ok. Let's see what marriage might be like if your daughter married this man she "met online."
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http://travel.state.gov/travel/marriagetosaudis.html
DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION IN THIS CIRCULAR RELATING TO THE LEGAL REQUIREMENTS OF SPECIFIC FOREIGN COUNTRIES IS OBTAINED FROM PAST EXPERIENCE AND IS NOT NECESSARILY AUTHORITATIVE. QUESTIONS INVOLVING INTERPRETATION OF SPECIFIC FOREIGN LAWS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED TO FOREIGN COUNSEL.
SAUDI ARABIA
MARRIAGE TO SAUDIS
The following information has been prepared by our Embassy in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, to assist United States citizens in understanding the cultural and legal differences they face when considering marriage to a Saudi citizen. The information was culled from interviews with Americans married to Saudis, most of whom were American women. While the majority of this document will address concerns specific to American women, American men may also want to consider these issues as well.
All the Americans interviewed strongly urged prospective spouses of Saudi men to visit the Kingdom and meet the Saudi in-laws before making a commitment to a culture very different in many respects from the one in which they were raised.
The American citizen spouse of a Saudi national is, with a handful of exceptions, female. Saudi women are prohibited from marrying non-Arabs except with a special dispensation from the King. (A dispensation is also required before a Saudi woman may marry an Arab who is not a citizen of the Gulf Cooperation Council, i.e. Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.) Saudi families generally will not allow their daughters to marry non-Muslims, and conversion to Islam is often required before an American man could marry a Saudi woman. A few daughters of Saudi diplomats, raised and educated abroad, are known to have received royal dispensation for marriage to Europeans. Most Saudi women who are married to westerners reside abroad with their husbands.
WHAT TO EXPECT AND CONSIDER
Life in Saudi Arabia, a country that prides itself on its conservative interpretation and application of the Quran, (Koran) requires that couples talk about very basic lifestyle issues. Americans in Saudi Arabia suggest that Americans considering marriage to a Saudi discuss the following lifestyle issues with their prospective spouse before marrying or living in Saudi Arabia.
How cosmopolitan is the Saudi husband's family?
All American wives encourage prospective brides to meet the Saudi family before arriving in Saudi Arabia as a married woman. While it is no guarantee of acceptance, a family that regularly travels abroad or one in which the father has been stationed abroad is generally more broad-minded when it comes to their son marrying a westerner. It is the parents who can be the greatest source of pressure on a dual-national marriage and it is important to determine their opinions of what an American wife can and cannot do while living in Saudi Arabia.
With whom will you live?
Many newly married couples move in with the groom's parents, in a sprawling villa that may house several other siblings and their wives and families. There is no such thing as personal privacy and tensions with family members who for one reason or another, may resent the presence of an American wife, often make this living arrangement difficult. In a more affluent family, a couple may inhabit one of several homes in a small family compound. Some Saudis live separately in villas or apartments. While that may resolve the issue of privacy, many American wives find themselves completely isolated, surrounded by neighbors who only speak Arabic, and with no access to public or private transportation.
Western-style housing arrangements, which are rare, are often an apartment or villa located in a western compound or in the Diplomatic Quarter. In the Quarter, there is a semblance of western suburban life; however, most Saudi owners of compounds catering to non-Saudis ban Saudi tenants since they fear western inhabitants would object. The rare Saudi male who endorses this living arrangement is generally a naturalized Saudi of Lebanese or Palestinian origin. For the average Saudi family, residence in a western compound would be an unnatural renunciation of Saudi culture and would make one culturally "suspect."
With whom will you socialize?
Saudis socialize within the family. Expatriates who have lived and worked for years in Saudi Arabia may never meet the wife of a close Saudi friend and, according to custom, should never so much as inquire about her health. For an American wife, a social life confined to her husband's family can be stultifying, particularly since few American wives speak, or learn to speak, Arabic. Whether the Saudi husband permits his wife to socialize with men to whom they are not related determines how western a social life they will enjoy. Because of the segregated society, Saudi men naturally spend much of their time together, separate from wives and family. (Even Saudi weddings are segregated affairs, with observances for men and women often held on different evenings and in different locations.) Only the most westernized Saudi will commit to socializing with other dual-national couples.
What freedom of movement will you enjoy?
Women are prohibited from driving, riding a motorcycle, pedaling a bicycle, or traveling by taxi, train or plane without an escort. All American wives were aware that they would not be able to drive while in Saudi Arabia, but few comprehended just how restricted their movements would be. Only the relatively affluent Saudi family will have a driver on staff. Most American women depend entirely upon their husbands and male relatives for transportation. While most expatriate western women routinely use taxis, any woman married to a Saudi will be expected to have an escort - either another female relative or children - before entering the taxi of an unrelated male.
Will you and your children be permitted to travel separately from your husband or leave the country without him?
Travel by train or plane inside Saudi Arabia requires the permission of the male spouse and the presence of a male family escort. Travel outside Saudi Arabia is even more restricted. Everyone leaving Saudi Arabia must have an exit visa.
Women and children residing in Saudi Arabia as members of a Saudi household (including adult American citizen women married to Saudi men, adult American citizen women who are the unmarried daughters of Saudi fathers, and American citizen boys under the age of 21 who are the sons of Saudi fathers) require the permission of the Saudi male head of their household to leave the country. Married women require the permission of their husband to depart the country, while unmarried women and children require the permission of their father or male guardian. The U.S. Embassy can intercede with the Saudi government to request exit permission for an adult American woman (wife or daughter of a Saudi citizen), but may not be able to obtain permission for the departure of minor children without the father's agreement.
Temporary visitors normally do not need an exit permit but may be prevented from departing the country if they are involved in a legal dispute.
Will you be permitted to work?
There are two hurdles an American wife must overcome before finding work outside the home: the disapproval of the family and the lack of employment opportunities, particularly if the wife does not speak Arabic. Most husbands will not approve of a wife working outside the home if it entails contact with unrelated men. Employment is generally restricted to the fields of education (teaching women students only) and medicine. Unfortunately, there is a tremendous social bias against the nursing profession and most Saudi husbands would not approve of a wife working with patients, except as a physician.
Will your husband take a second wife?
Among the younger generation, it is rare for a Saudi to have a second wife, but it does occur. A man is legally entitled to up to four wives, with the proviso that he be able financially and emotionally to accord them equal status.
Religion
In principle, all Saudi men must marry Muslims or converts to Islam. In practice, many American women blur the issue, participating in a Sharia (Islamic) wedding ceremony but never actually converting.
Pressure to convert to Islam is enormous and never-ending. There is no separation of church and state in Saudi Arabia, and at the popular level there is simply no comprehension of religious freedom or the desire to remain another religion or undecided. Children born to a Saudi man are considered to be Muslim at birth. Women who do not convert can find it difficult to accept that their children, through hours of Islamic education a day at school and under the tutelage of the family, will be practicing Muslims. Women who do convert may find that their conversion, particularly in the aftermath of a divorce, is suspect and their fidelity to Islam perceived to be less than their husband's.
Family
Saudi Arabia has one of the highest birthrates in the world and families with five or more children are the norm. The family is the basic unit of Saudi life and family members may have much closer relations than in the United States. Every family member feels free to give an opinion on any facet of another family member's life. Siblings - particularly an older brother - are expected to aid each other financially, and males must band together to guard the honor of their female relations. Children are not expected or encouraged to leave home even when they are adults.
What will it be like to raise a daughter?
Cultural differences are never greater than when it comes to the role of women, and a mother raising a daughter in Saudi Arabia can anticipate that her daughter's upbringing will be very different from her own and that her daughter will have dreams and expectations that her mother may not share. Growing up in Saudi Arabia, a young girl may naturally look forward to the day when she comes of age and can wear the abaya and cover her hair. She will naturally be very devout. She may be expected to marry a first cousin. For a Saudi girl, this may be the natural state of affairs; for an American mother of a Saudi girl, it can be unsettling.
If the Marriage Fails
In the worst scenario, an American wife can find herself summarily divorced, deported, and deprived of any right of visitation with her children. Sharia (Islamic) law decidedly favors men in the dissolution of marriage, and the laws of Saudi Arabia require that all individuals be sponsored by a Saudi citizen in order to receive a visa, resident or otherwise. Therefore, once a marriage breaks up, the American must leave Saudi Arabia and, in most cases, may only return with the explicit permission and sponsorship of her ex-husband.
If a Saudi husband attempts to prevent his wife from leaving, the Embassy can call upon Saudi authorities to facilitate the American's departure. The Embassy cannot force a Saudi husband to relinquish the children.
The basis for marriage under Shari'a Law is the marriage contract, which is negotiated between the prospective husband and wife prior to marriage. The signing of the contract by the bride and groom and their witnesses in front of a Shari'a Court official is the legal beginning of the marriage. The contract can include prenuptial agreements concerning the custody and place of residence of children and the wife's ability to depart Saudi Arabia if the marriage should be terminated by death of the husband or divorce. An American citizen considering marriage to a Saudi citizen can obtain Saudi legal counsel to assist in negotiating the marriage contract to include agreements of this nature. It is the Embassy' s understanding that prenuptial agreements written into the marriage contract as an integral part of the contract will be subsequently honored by a Saudi Shari'a Court.
What custody rights do women have under Sharia law?
Theoretically, a mother should maintain custody the children until the ages of 7-9, when their primary care would be transferred to their father. However, the ultimate objective of a Sharia court in the settlement of custody issues is that the child be raised a good Muslim. Whether a convert or not to Islam, an American woman will not overcome the prejudice against her upbringing and society.
Can an American be denied visitation rights to his or her children?
A Saudi parent must give explicit permission for an ex-spouse to visit their children in Saudi Arabia. The Embassy has worked with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to create the "no-objection" visa. The ex-husband must be willing to sign a statement that he has no objection to his ex-spouse visiting Saudi Arabia. In that statement, the Saudi parent would establish how long he or she is willing to let the ex-spouse remain in the country. The history of no-objection visas is mixed.
A Saudi parent often objects to the emotional disruption of a visit from the American parent. Often a Saudi husband's second wife can become jealous, and the American mother may find that her visit is restricted in time and carried out in full view of the extended Saudi family.
OTHER CHILDREN'S ISSUES
For information on international adoption of children and international parental child abduction, please refer to our Internet site at http://travel.state.gov/children's_issues.html or telephone (202) 736-7000.
REGISTRATION AND EMBASSY/CONSULATE LOCATION
Americans living in or visiting Saudi Arabia are encouraged to register at the Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh or the Consulates General in Dhahran and Jeddah. U.S. citizens who register at the U.S. Embassy or the U.S. Consulates General may obtain updated information on travel and security within Saudi Arabia and can be included in the warden network.
The U.S. Embassy in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, is located at Collector Road M, Riyadh Diplomatic Quarter. The international mailing address is P.O. Box 94309, Riyadh 11693. Mail may also be sent via the U.S. Postal Service to: U.S. Embassy, Unit 61307, APO AE 09803-1307. The Embassy telephone number is (966) (1) 488-3800, fax (966) (1) 488-7275. Additional information may be found on the Embassy website at http://riyadh.usembassy.gov.
The U.S. Consulate General in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, is located between Aramco Headquarters and the old Dhahran Airport at the King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals highway exit. The international mailing address is P.O. Box 38955, Doha-Dhahran 31942. Mail may also be sent via the U.S. Postal Service to: Unit 66803, APO AE 09858-6803. The telephone number is (966) (3) 330-3200, fax (966) (3) 330-6816. Additional information may be found on the consulate website at http://dhahran.usconsulate.gov.
The U.S. Consulate General in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, is located on Palestine Road, Ruwais. The international mailing address is P.O. Box 149, Jeddah. Mail may also be sent via the U.S. Postal Service to: Unit 62112, APO AE 09811-2112. The telephone number is (966) (2) 667-0080, fax (966) (2) 669-3078 or 669-3098. Additional information may be found on the consulate website at http://jeddah.usconsulate.gov.
U.S. citizens should also consult the Department of State's Consular Information Sheet for Saudi Arabia and the World Wide Caution Public Announcement, which are located on the Department's Internet website at http://travel.state.gov.
This is a case for the FReep Prayer Warriors!
Remind her that Theo VanGogh was recently brutally murdered for making a film about how Muslims treat "their women"
Thanks...you have freepmail.
She should watch that Sally Field move "Not without my daughter" and speak to some people who have been there done that. It's important to know if he's a practicing Muslim because some are not --- I know a man from India with a Muslim background who was married to an American woman and he was a very devoted husband and father --- just not very Muslim which was good.
I can't express how grateful I am for the advice everyone is giving. Freepers are incredible!
I worked with a nice fellow at Southwestern Bell Telephone back in 1982..... His daughter ran off with a fellow from Iran...right before the Shah fell.... He never saw his daughter again.
What about her mother?
I think you should just go with that plan --- maybe it's just one of those fantasy internet relationships that doesn't make it past the first meeting. A lot don't.
Got it. . .and back at ya. . .
Very upset but she's not very good at coming up with ideas. She (and I) will continue to work on her, but at this point I'm worried that being too confrontational will have an adverse result.
Please post your replies to 6ppc
6ppc, My prayers going up for you and your daughter. God's guidance and strength for you, God's intervention in your daughters life.
Palladin, thank you for the ping.
Blessings,
trussell
If you want on/off my prayer ping list, please let me know. All requests happily honored.
She needs to read about some of the women who have married Muslims, had children and moved to Muslim countries, only to find that they cannot leave, nor can they take their children out of the country. She needs to understand that she will become chattel. My prayers are with you.
Throw her out immediately. If she has to pay for everything, trips to England may be out of reach.
With all respect and seriousness:
Pray to Hashem or Jesus.
Track down a copy of the recent Dutch film "Submission" by the murdered filmmaker van Goeh. Maybe she'll think twice....
Not Without My Daughter is a true story and continues to happen all the time. Here is a synopsis from a Christian site:
This dramatization of Betty Mahmoody's struggle to escape Iran with her daughter is very worthwhile. The two lead actors are both capable of everything from comedy to intense drama, and the producers spent the money needed to create a realistic Middle East location shoot.
As the film opens in 1984, Betty (Sally Field) is happily married to "Moody," an Iranian-American physician, and living in Michigan with him and their young daughter Mahtob (Sheila Rosenthal). Moody (Alfred Molina, Maverick, Species), who has been in the U.S. for 20 years, seems thoroughly Americanized and not a particularly strong Muslim; he even appears to drink alcohol. But he's harassed at work by anti-Arab employees, including some of the other physicians; and his family in Iran is pressuring him to return for a visit. He finally consents and also talks Betty into the trip, swearing to her on the Koran that they'll only be there for two weeks and there'll be no danger.
Once home, Moody is further pressured by his strict Muslim family to stay there and to rededicate himself to Islam. He undergoes a rapid transformation, tells Betty that they're not leaving and that Mahtob will be raised a Muslim, becomes violent, and virtually imprisons Betty. The rest of the film deals with her plight and her various schemes to escape the country. The presumably Farsi dialogue is not subtitled, which gives the non-Iranian viewer some of the same sense of isolation that Betty feels. Betty (presumably a Christian) prays repeatedly with Mahtob that the Lord will let them leave Iran. Eventually she befriends a sympathetic shopkeeper, Hamid (Sasson Gabai, Rambo 3), who puts her in touch with an underground movement dedicated to helping women like her to escape Iran. When Moody orders her to go back to the U.S. by herself, liquidate their assets and send/wire the cash to him before returning, she basically replies with the film's title. He knows that if she takes Mahtob, he'll never see either of them again. She knows that if she goes alone, he'll probably divorce her in absentia and SHE'LL never see Mahtob again. Both parents want what they believe is best for their daughter. But thanks to their mixed marriage, they have irreconcilable views on what is best.
There are only a few profanities (in English), uttered by both Moody and Betty in emotional moments. There are several instances of physical violence by Moody against Betty, triggered by his (correct) assumption that she's plotting to escape. The only sexual content is a non-explicit attempted rape of Betty by one of her "escape guides," which is quickly halted by the chief guide. There are instances of bombs being dropped in residential areas of Tehran during the Iran-Iraq war, and threats against Betty from armed "purity patrols" because she sometimes fails to wear her Muslim garb properly. Female viewers will be especially affected by Betty's predicament as Moody vacillates between devoted husband and Muslim fundamentalist.
Obviously, this film is somewhat anti-Muslim in tone. But if Betty's story is true and there are others like her still held against their will, then that story is worth telling.
Historical Note: Younger viewers may be confused by the references to the U.S. backing Iraq in a war against Iran. When Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini forced Shah Reza Pahlavi out of office in 1979 and transformed Iran into a fundamentalist Muslim state, there was bad blood between Iran and the United States. Iran held American hostages for over a year and ignored all of President Carter's efforts to free them, but finally let them go at almost the very moment President Reagan was sworn in on Jan. 20, 1981. The U.S., the world's largest arms dealer, did indeed supply Iraq with weapons in the '80s. Later in the Reagan administration, the U.S. secretly began supplying military spare parts to Iran (and using the profits to secretly fund anti-communist guerillas in Nicaragua) while distancing itself from (and in 1991 going to war against) Iraq, so that our relative friendliness to the two countries was now reversed. As of this writing (2000), that's still the case.
Year of Release -- 1990
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