Posted on 09/19/2004 8:38:35 PM PDT by grace522
Ping on #79 - very appropriate.
I believe bad momma is a troll and has made some obscene comments... I reported, Moderator decides :-)
I must have missed something. kerry's campaign website has posted an honorable discharge dated Feb 1978. http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Honorable_Discharge_From_Reserve.pdf. Where can I find the discharge dated Mar 2001? I'm not familiar with military documents, so maybe I'm just reading the wrong document. I still think they'd have been better off putting someone with my level of expertise in charge of their Military Document Forgery Department.
Mine are sort of an off-biege. Tell JF'nK that I've an extra if he needs one.
How do you know this? Have you seen all of his military records, or just the copies he posted on his site with the claim that they are complete and accurate? Until he signs the SF-180, lack of records does not prove the records do not exist.
Thanks for serving and welcome to FR, Air Force brother.
You may be right, but I think a court martial is a matter of public record. It wouldn't be confined to just his personnel file. Furthermore, a court martial involves a lot of people and I would have to assume that by now one of them would have popped up either during his senate campaigns or more recently.
There is one possibility. I know from working at the Stockade at Ft Riley Kansas for a couple of months back in 71 that enlisted men were often given the choice of a court martial or accepting a less than honorable discharge. I doubt they would do that to a commissioned officer and I think the rules about discharges, etc are or were different for officers than for enlisted men.
I just find it very hard to believe Kerry could cover up a court martial and bad discharge. It's not out of the realm of possibility, but I very much doubt it is true.
I can confirm that. The day I left the active Air Force I was given a DD214 and an 18 month commitment in the Inactive Ready Reserve.
You get a DD214 every time you are released from Active DUTY, not Active Status. Here is the proof:
http://arpc.afrc.af.mil/separations/dischargecertificate.htm
I was incorrect about one minor detail...guard and reserve only get a DD214 when released from 90 days of Active Duty, not 30.
When you are discharged from the guard completely,it is another form. I'm not crazy on this. I've got two DD214s from when I completed my Active Duty times of more than 90 days and I got a third, DIFFERENT form when I was discharged from the Guard completely, but it was NOT a DD214.
The website I listed explains that I am correct.
Would someone please tell me where I can find it? The closest I've come to it is a DD-215 that was filled out in March 2001. That is not the same thing as an Honorable Discharge. I'm beginning to think this is a hoax.
(Please FReepmail if you want on, or off, this list. I certainly have no desire to increase anyones stress-level. Thanks!!!)
See? He's done plenty of 180s. No need to sign one.
In my hypothesis, Kerrys request for full pardon was granted. Kerry applied for his military records to be corrected accordingly, and applied for an honorable discharge. The Secretary of the Navy wrote to Kerry on Feb 16 1978, enclosing an Honorable Discharge Certificate and stating:
This action is taken in accordance with the approved recommendations of a board of officers convened ... to examine the official records of officers of the Naval Reserve on inactive duty and determine whether they should be retained on the rolls of the Reserve Component or separated from the naval service pursuant to Secretarial instructions promulgated in reference [c].
This may explain why he has numerous citations for his Silver Star and other decorations. All signed at different times.
It is customary to strip all decorations from an individual who is discharged dishonorably.
Over the years, he might have petitioned to get them back. Friendly military leaders may have signed on.
Just a thought.
Put Dan Rather on the case.
Pardoned by Carter in 1977?
The record is puzzling. Why would Kerry claim hero status and then refuse to allow us to see his record and allow every reader to confirm his claims? Why, even in war time, does Kerry service in the USNR appear to stretch from 1966 to 1978, 12 years? How does one explain the strange irregularities (multiple citations for his Silver Star) and inconsistencies in the Kerry military records that are available? Why does the 6 year (plus six month?) USNR obligation begun by Kerry in 2/66 appear to end in 1/70 again, in time of war, even though available records seem to indicate that the terminal date of his reserve obligation was 17 Feb 1972? Why are the documents that should be available, not there? The answers to all these question may be linked and surprisingly obvious. My thesis would be very easy to disprove (if it is false) by simply releasing Kerrys entire military record.
Even if you include a lot of puffery and self-promotion, Kerrys in-country record in late 1968 and early 1969 was exceptional and one to be admired and honored. But, for reasons we do not yet understand, in roughly late 1969, Kerry turned bad.
In late 1969, Kerry asked for an early release from active dutyeven though he had re-upped to serve on active duty until August, 1970. He said he wished to enter the democrat party primary, held in September, 1970 in Massachusetts, to be a candidate for Congress for the Third District. He was detached from active duty effective 4:00 PM, 2 January 1970 and specifically reminded the he assumed ... The status of a member of the Naval Reserve on inactive duty.
The paper trail of available Navy records disappears for almost 8 years. In March, 1970, Kerry drops out of the Congressional primary in favor of the notorious Father Drinan, Dean of Boston College Law School (where Kerry later attended law school, 1973-1976). From early, 1970 through the Summer of 1973, Kerry takes part in activities involving war protests, meeting in Paris with Viet Cong representatives and the leadership of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. These activities, some of which may have been legal, were of very questionable patriotism for an honest citizen of the US but certainly inappropriate for a US Naval officer.
Thats pretty much fact. Now, the thesis that explains the rest of the mysteries. I believe that Kerry was court martialed in the early 70s or otherwise terminated from the USNR under conditions other than honorable. Whatever actually happened represented a stain on Kerrys record that might not have been taken lightly even by voters in Massachusetts.
Then, on January 21,1977, Democrat President Jimmy Carter (POTUS - January 20,1977 - January 20,1981) gave a blanket pardon, in Proclamation 4483, to certain offenders as follows:
Acting pursuant to the grant of authority in Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution of the United States, I, Jimmy Carter, President of the United States, do hereby grant a full, complete and unconditional pardon to: (1) all persons who may have committed any offense between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act or any rule or regulation promulgated thereunder; and (2) all persons heretofore convicted, irrespective of the date of conviction, of any offense committed between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act, or any rule or regulation promulgated thereunder, restoring to them full political, civil and other rights.
Thus, if my thesis is correct, Kerrys offense must have occurred between 2 January 1970 and March 28, 1973. My thesis suggests that during 1977, Kerry made application for full pardon under the administrative procedures promulgated by the Office of the Pardon Attorney, Department of Justice. He almost certainly sought and received the support of Massachusetts Senator Kennedy who had much clout in the Carter administration. Kennedy may have been responsible for suggesting that the records of such a fine young man be embellished by Citations from the Secretary of the Navy, rather than a mere admiral, and in other details not yet known.
In my hypothesis, Kerrys request for full pardon was granted. Kerry applied for his military records to be corrected accordingly, and applied for an honorable discharge. The Secretary of the Navy wrote to Kerry on Feb 16 1978, enclosing an Honorable Discharge Certificate and stating:
This action is taken in accordance with the approved recommendations of a board of officers convened ... to examine the official records of officers of the Naval Reserve on inactive duty and determine whether they should be retained on the rolls of the Reserve Component or separated from the naval service pursuant to Secretarial instructions promulgated in reference [c].
The reference, [c],is to BUPERSMAN 3830300. A Google search did not provide any information regarding the text of this provision. But, this might explain why he was discharged 12 long years after enlistment.
This hypothesis explains the inconsistencies in Kerrys record and makes it clear why he acts like a three card Monte dealer in insisting that we watch his time in Nam very carefully and not pay attention to what happened afterward. It is exactly the position Benedict Arnold took with respect to what happened at West Point and afterward.
Proofs? Well, no. Certainly, the official USNR file on Kerry would quickly prove or disprove my thesis. Kerry refuses to sign a Standard Form 180 authorizing the Navy to release it, suggesting that Kerry has much more to lose by showing his records than by continuing to conceal material information. Kennedy? Not likely that his office would say anything that might negatively effect Kerry even though it might be in the nations best interest. It is, after all, Kennedy. The US Navy? It is unlikely that the Navy would, of its own volition, risk alienating a sitting US Senator and a man who might be the next CinC. Kerrys first wife, Julia Thorne, who went to Paris with Kerry when he met with the Viet Cong, and her brother, David H. Thorne, certainly might be able to add facts but, would the old timey, ultra-left wing, liberal media even ask them?
But, there is a another possibility. Many aspects of the Presidential Pardon/Clemency process are matters of public record, in the Department of Justice. If Jimmy Carter pardoned Kerry, there should be a public record that Kerry shouldnt be able to conceal. An applicant appears to be told in the application process:
"A record of each Certificate of Pardon will be maintained in the Office of the Pardon Attorney as an official record, together with your application form and any other documents compiled in the course of processing your request. The Pardon Attorney may disclose the contents of such files to anyone when the disclosure is required by law or the ends of justice. In particular, public record documents that may be compiled in the course of processing an application, such as the judgment order from the criminal case for which pardon is sought, trial or sentencing transcripts, court opinions, and newspaper articles, are generally made available upon request by third-parties (including representatives of the news media) pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act, unless such disclosure could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of the petitioner's personal privacy. In addition, unsolicited Congressional correspondence is treated in the same manner. On the other hand, non-public documents that may be compiled in the course of processing an application, such as the application form itself, are not generally available under the Freedom of Information Act."
The DoJ procedures indicate:
"Publicly available information for which a FOIA request is not required:
Publicly available information: Executive clemency statistics from the administration of President McKinley to the present; rules governing the pardon attorney and petitions for executive clemency published at 28 C.F.R. §§ 0.35-36 and § 1.1 et seq.; forms for applying for executive clemency; publication: Civil Disabilities of Convicted Felons: A State-by-State Survey (October 1996); copies of clemency warrants and proclamations for persons who have been granted executive clemency; description of clemency procedures contained in United States Attorney's Manual at § 1-2.110 et seq.; whether an individual has applied for executive clemency and action on such application."
Thus, I would urge any individual or member of the media with an interest in learning the truth about Kerrys total military record to contact/visit the Office of the Pardon Attorney, Department of Justice and inquire whether there are any records for John Forbes Kerry. Check variations of Kerrys name (intentional misfiling?), things like John Kerry Forbes. Kerrys Social Security Number appears to be shown, unredacted, on a 17 Dec 1970 document in his file but his Military ID number is not known. Finally, dont limit inquiries to actions under Proclamation 4483, President Carter may have taken some clemency action because key party members may have required him to. Finally, From a reading of the above, it appears that certain information should be available on a walk in basis and other information must be requested via FOIA application.
"The offices of record are :
FOIA Contact:
Samuel T. Morison, Attorney Advisor Office of the Pardon Attorney 4th Floor, 500 First Street, N.W. Department of Justice Washington, DC 20530-0001 (202) 616-6070
Conventional Reading Room:
United States Department of Justice Office of the Pardon Attorney 4th Floor, 500 First Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20530"
Several observations: It is indeed unfortunate that a man who would be President, so distrusts the American public and his own background that he hides material information in his military records in the hope of hornswoggling the electorate, of tricking us into believing he is one thing when, in fact, he may be another. Second, the above process should have long ago been followed by the media. It is also unfortunate that most of the traditional media are far too interested in electing Kerry to bother with doing any fact finding or reporting of information that might dissuade the electorate or present the truth.
Proof? Again, no, no proof, but as long as Kerry in his arrogance, refuses to trust Americans, we have the right to make assumptions about his dishonesty, mendacity and refusal to be candid and to assume that he uses similar duplicity with respect to other matters, as well. The above represents my current best guess about why Kerry is being dishonest and what he is hiding.
If true, this would explain why he didn't run for President or entertain talk of being a running mate until '04.
We knew there had to be a bombshell in his records, or he would have sought to diffuse the Swift Vets ASAP. This would fit the bill.
Check this out.
Are the Dems trying to get us to bite on a false memo?
Besides, didn't Carter grant all the deserters amnesty?
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