Posted on 06/12/2003 5:58:28 AM PDT by Aurelius
Over the years I've heard many rail at the South for seceding from the 'glorious Union.' They claim that Jeff Davis and all Southerners were really nothing but traitors - and some of these people were born and raised in the South and should know better, but don't, thanks to their government school 'education.'
Frank Conner, in his excellent book The South Under Siege 1830-2000 deals in some detail with the question of Davis' alleged 'treason.' In referring to the Northern leaders he noted: "They believed the most logical means of justifying the North's war would be to have the federal government convict Davis of treason against the United States. Such a conviction must presuppose that the Confederate States could not have seceded from the Union; so convicting Davis would validate the war and make it morally legitimate."
Although this was the way the federal government planned to proceed, that prolific South-hater, Thaddeus Stevens, couldn't keep his mouth shut and he let the cat out of the bag. Stevens said: "The Southerners should be treated as a conquered alien enemy...This can be done without violence to the established principles only on the theory that the Southern states were severed from the Union and were an independent government de facto and an alien enemy to be dealt with according to the laws of war...No reform can be effected in the Southern States if they have never left the Union..." And, although he did not plainly say it, what Stevens really desired was that the Christian culture of the Old South be 'reformed' into something more compatible with his beliefs. No matter how you look at it, the feds tried to have it both ways - they claimed the South was in rebellion and had never been out of the Union, but then it had to do certain things to 'get back' into the Union it had never been out of. Strange, is it not, that the 'history' books never seem to pick up on this?
At any rate, the Northern government prepared to try President Davis for treason while it had him in prison. Mr. Conner has observed that: "The War Department presented its evidence for a treason trial against Davis to a famed jurist, Francis Lieber, for his analysis. Lieber pronounced 'Davis will not be found guilty and we shall stand there completely beaten'." According to Mr. Conner, U.S. Attorney General James Speed appointed a renowned attorney, John J. Clifford, as his chief prosecutor. Clifford, after studying the government's evidence against Davis, withdrew from the case. He said he had 'grave doubts' about it. Not to be undone, Speed then appointed Richard Henry Dana, a prominent maritime lawyer, to the case. Mr. Dana also withdrew. He said basically, that as long as the North had won a military victory over the South, they should just be satisfied with that. In other words - "you won the war, boys, so don't push your luck beyond that."
Mr. Conner tells us that: "In 1866 President Johnson appointed a new U.S. attorney general, Henry Stanburg. But Stanburg wouldn't touch the case either. Thus had spoken the North's best and brightest jurists re the legitimacy of the War of Northern Aggression - even though the Jefferson Davis case offered blinding fame to the prosecutor who could prove that the South had seceded unconstitutionally." None of these bright lights from the North would touch this case with a ten-foot pole. It's not that they were dumb, in fact the reverse is true. These men knew a dead horse when they saw it and were not about to climb aboard and attempt to ride it across the treacherous stream of illegal secession. They knew better. In fact, a Northerner from New York, Charles O'Connor, became the legal counsel for Jeff Davis - without charge. That, plus the celebrity jurists from the North that refused to touch the case, told the federal government that they really had no case against Davis or secession and that Davis was merely being held as a political prisoner.
Author Richard Street, writing in The Civil War back in the 1950s said exactly the same thing. Referring to Jeff Davis, Street wrote: "He was imprisoned after the war, was never brought to trial. The North didn't dare give him a trial, knowing that a trial would establish that secession was not unconstitutional, that there had been no 'rebellion' and that the South had got a raw deal." At one point the government intimated that it would be willing to offer Davis a pardon, should he ask for one. Davis refused that and he demanded that the government either give him a pardon or give him a trial, or admit that they had dealt unjustly with him. Mr. Street said: "He died 'unpardoned' by a government that was leery of giving him a public hearing." If Davis was as guilty as they claimed, why no trial???
Had the federal government had any possible chance to convict Davis and therefore declare secession unconstitutional they would have done so in a New York minute. The fact that they diddled around and finally released him without benefit of the trial he wanted proves that the North had no real case against secession. Over 600,000 boys, both North and South, were killed or maimed so the North could fight a war of conquest over something that the South did that was neither illegal or wrong. Yet they claim the moral high ground because the 'freed' the slaves, a farce at best.
1.the damnyankees so throughly destroyed the economy of the southland that subsistence farming/peonage/sharecropping was all that was reasonably possible.southerners couldn't have afforded a hoe & pick, much less a steam traction device, after the damnyankees perpetrated the VAST number of WAR CRIMES committed against civilians in the southland.
2. ABSENT the WBTS, there would have been plenty of capitol to modernize with both mule-drawn & steam traction devices.British & European banks & other fibnancial institutions would have been pleased to fund such modernizations, even if yankee-state banks would not.
3.sadly for YOU, the steam traction devices, which you discount, are in numerous cases STILL plowing/harvesting crops in Great Britain,a 100+ years later. so much for their un-reliablility!(suggesting that the first primative traction devices would not have been improved QUICKLY & become even better , is analogous to saying that the 1903 Oldsmobile remained the most advanced form of wheeled vehicle!)
4.the steam tractor at the Institute of Texan Cultures was still being used in the 1970s for plowing,tilling & harvesting row-crops in Collin County,TX;it was manufactured in 1863 in Liverpool, England. (must have worked pretty well, huh?)
5.your "first hit" on the worldwidewierd demonstrates only THIS: there is almost nothing of real importance, on any subject whatever,which can be discerned from a cursory inspection of the internet. NOTHING! truth is found in old, dusty tomes in LIBRARIES;may i humblely suggest you visit one and look into the SUCCESSFUL use of steam traction devices in British agriculture in the 19th & 20th centuries.
6.the bottom line is this: you just can't admit i'm correct about the demise of chattal slavery within 5-10 years (absent TWBTS)BECAUSE it makes the hatefilled, power-hungry,nativist,arrogant,statist/fascist,self-righteous imperialists of the lincoln cult look like the criminals/creeps/thugs that they DEMONSTRABLY were.
TWBTS, for the lincoln cultists & northeastern radicals was about JUST TWO THINGS: $$$$$$$$$$$$$ & permanent domination of the southland.that too is TRUTH!
free the south,sw
He certainly did.
"When you give the Negro these rights," he [Lincoln] said, "when you put a gun in his hands, it prophesies something more: it foretells that<>b> he is to have the full enjoyment of his liberty and his manhood...
By the close of the war, Lincoln was reccomending commissioning black officers in the regiments, and one actually rose to become a major before it was over. At the end of 1863, more than a hundred thousand had enlisted in the United States Colored Troops, and in his message to Congress the president reported, "So far as tested, it is difficult to say they are not as good soldiers as any."
...For the newly freed and the newly enlisted black men who served in the Union army--in the end more than 179,000 of them---perhaps the greatest moment was when they they too, shared the experience of paying their respects, of marching past their presidents in their new uniforms, looking as smart and martial as any. On April 23, 1864, and again two days later, newly mustered black regiments in a division attached to the IX corps passed through Washington on their way to the Virginia front. They marched proudly down Pennsylvania Avenue, past Willard's Hotel, where Lincoln and their commander, Burnside stood on a balcony watching. When the six black regiments came in sight of the president they went wild, singing, cheering, dancing in the street while marching. As each unit passed they saluted, and he took off his hat in return, the same modest yet meaningful acknowledgement he gave his white soldiers. He looked old and worn to the men in the street, but they could not see the cheer in his breast as he witnessed the culmination of their long journey from slavery, and pondered, perhaps, what it had cost him to be part of it. Even when rain began to fall and Burnside suggested they step inside while the parade continued, Lincoln decided to stay outdoors. "If they can stand it," he said, "I guess I can."
--"Lincoln's Men" pp 163-64 by William C. Davis
Walt
i'll see if our county library or NOVACC has a copy.
free the south,sw
which of his points do YOU think he's wrong about?
as far as i'm concerned, the ABUSE directed at him comes from just 2 sources: those who are less intelligent than Williams AND those who hate him because he is both black AND conservative.
i've gotten much of the same sort of hatefulness directed at me, only because i'm a Cherokee (and may i suggest both better educated & better read than SOME of my academic peers.)AND socially/politically conservative. i was recently referred to by a member of the English faculty as "that !@#$%^& redskin @#$%^&*".(fyi, it has been my expierience, that when a professor indulges in obscenity to describe a colleague, that he/she has LOST THE FIGHT!)
free dixie,sw
Part One: The Secret Plan
[The scene]: A stainless steel submarine floating underwater somewhere off the southern coast of Freeper Island. On the bridge is GOPCapitalist, 4ConservativeJustices, & Aurelius. All are dressed in grey fatigues and kepis. GOPCap is peering through the periscope in the direction of land, Aurelius is busy consulting a navigational chart, and 4CJ [wearinging headphones] is adjusting a shortwave radio.
[GOPCap]: So far no signal from shore, we’ll have to wait a bit longer for the ‘package’ to arrive.
[Aurelius]: Agent Wardaddy is one of our best men, I’m sure he will come through. You have to admit, this plan to kidnap the statue of Lincoln from the city of Richmond and replace it with a life sized replica of Ol’ Miss Mascot Col. Reb is a stroke of genius.
[Parrot on GOPcaps shoulder] Squawk! Free Dixie!! Squawk!
[GOPCap]: Well our benefactors in this venture have been generous, although one wonders whether the plan suffers from major structural weakness that only my mighty intellect can discern…
[4CJ raising his hand:] Wait. I’m picking up a coded signal. Its from agent Wardaddy.
[GOPCap looking through the periscope] Well, whats it say?
[4CJ] its being sent in Marse code to prevent our enemies from intercepting the transmission. Quick give me a copy of Gone With the Wind so I can translate.
[Aurelius]: I wish we had secret decoder rings like those other guys….
[GOPCap]: Shut up. I told you no decoder rings, I don’t care how cool they look. I’m not going to change my mind no matter what you say about it. I’m always right, so stop arguing, and admit you’re beaten…
[4CJ]: its from Agent Wardaddy. The replica statue is being transported from its secret location [the PKE house] to the boat dock as we speak. they’ll rendevous with us at 0300 hours.
[GOPCap]: Any word from our other agents?
[4CJ]: Yes there’s more. Agent Billbears has intercepted a written message from the enemy. He says it’s a card for the Republican Party’s 150th birthday…
[GOPCap]: Don’t those morons know that its only been 149 years since organized resistance to the ameircan slave-autocracy was formed? They continue to overexaggerate their claims and embellish their accomplishments in a leftist,crypto-communist conspiracy to destroy all we true southern conservative meateaters hold dear!!
[4CJ]: Well the prisoner said it was because they wanted to give people a lot of time to hear about the 150th birthday of the Republican party, and make plans..you know…to celebrate…
[GOPCap (scowling)]: Birthdays are a Marxist, Troskyite invention to mollify the unwashed masses with cake and ice cream, while lining the pockets of the greedy neocononservative corporations like Kraft and Hallmark. We must stop them from celebrating that birthday!
[Aurelius]: What about the prisoner? Who is he?
[4CJ]: agent Billbears says he’s some sort a federal agent carrying a big blue sack of letters. He took him prisoner on account of everything the government does is wrong or evil, and because them revenuers busted up his daddy's still that time, and because he liked the rubber soled shoes the prisoner was wearing.
[Aurelius]: He liked what? His shoes?
[4CJ]: Well, Billbears said he was tired of walking through the woods barefoot, and that the gubmint will give the prisoner a new pair once we decide to let him go. So he figured ‘why not' help himself to the rubber soled shoes? since that’s all the gubmint is good for anyway, you know giving stuff away...
[Parrot on GOPcaps shoulder] Squawk! Tyrants!, Scalawags!, Carpetbaggers! Squawk!
GOPCap: Anything else?
4CJ: We’ve also heard from agent Waddie. He’s doing some surveillance on your arch nemesises. He’s spotted them in a bar just outside Richmond and he’s surveiling those bluecoated scalawags right now.
[Parrot] Squawk! DamnYankees! Rebel Yell! Squawk!
Aurelius to himself: (Uh Oh, here we go again)
[GOPCap swinging his arms and knocking the parrot off his shoulder]: THOSE TWO! Where are they? We must leave at once and track them down! I can’t let them get away again. The replica Col Reb statue will have to wait.
[Aurelius]: Um, I’ll have to remind you Cap that the replica statue plan has top priority. Confederate symbols are extremely important to the big bosses, and they have laid out a lot of money to ensure we don’t fail in our mission. Do I have to remind you who paid for this stainless steel submarine, or all that gold braid you like to wear ?
[GOPCap turning blue in the face and fighting for control of the periscope with Aurelius]:But..I ..must...destroy..them..can't...let..them..win...
[fade to black]
To Be Continued...
Merriam Webster defines civil war as "a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country." That description would certainly fit.
Had the North fought the war to end slavery, then you would likely hear no argument from me and many others.
But my contention was with Dr. Williams' explanation for why the south seceded. Defense of the institution of slavery was the primary reason for the southern rebellion yet it is treated as the crazy aunt in the attic by all you sothron supporters, as if by refusing the acknowledge it will make it go away. Dr. Williams refuses to admit it and that, as much as anything else, makes all his opinions suspect. IMHO, of course.
Dictionary.com also lists that definition - oddly they also list a definition particular to the American Civil War Link.
The problem that I have with such a definition is that it is dependent on the outcome of said war (i.e. had the South won independence, it would have ceased to be a 'civil war'). In that light, any failed war of revolution can be termed a civil war, while other similar efforts are not.
Defense of the institution of slavery was the primary reason for the southern rebellion yet it is treated as the crazy aunt in the attic by all you sothron supporters,
I don't deny that the defense of slavery was a primary cause of the war. I deny that it was the only cause of the war, which is substantially different. The truth is that the war was the result of a chain of childish actions and responses on both sides, and once they tread the path toward war there was no turning back (again, a somewhat childish need to save face on both sides). I also contend that the South did work to leave peacefully, and war was largely a result of Northern unwillingness to allow their departure.
as if by refusing the acknowledge it will make it go away
It can't go away. Whether or not it would have died on it's own is speculation on both sides, and no crystal ball to help us out. The insistance by one side over the other that their argument is right is futile.
Dr. Williams refuses to admit it and that, as much as anything else, makes all his opinions suspect. IMHO, of course.
There are many people in the L party who's opinions are suspect for me as well, but it is very difficult to argue with Libertarians because their philosophy is so consistent that eventually a logical impasse is reached. It is a mistake to throw out the baby with the bathwater, though, as they make a lot of good points and in honest debate will oftentimes win out.
In this instance, he needs to separate the debate on secession from the debate on slavery to get his point across to those who have always been taught one only in context of the other. If slavery had not been at issue, would secession still have been wrong? Would the North have invaded? I have no answer concerning how much of the drive in the North hinged on opposition to slavery and firebrands in Massachusetts (et al) stirring the public. Interesting questions, no doubt.
May I suggest you read the Lincoln Gameplan for Deportation of Blacks submitted by James Mitchell.
You may then read the defense of James Mitchell by the your leader, the Brigade Commander of the Wlat Brigade, Wlat himself.
By the standards of the Wlat Brigade, James Mitchell is a "very loyal and capable Union man" and a "true patriot." Follow your leader. March with pride. Let the world see what the Wlat Brigade supports.
THE LINCOLN GAMEPLAN DRAFTED BY JAMES MITCHELL
[Image file from the Library of Congress]
Transcript of Lincoln Gameplan drafted by James Mitchell
[Wlat 1785] Now, Mitchell was a very loyal and capable Union man. If President Lincon would go out of his way to help rebels, what would he do for true patriots?
LINK
Yes, I concur. When people write about the political career of Abraham Lincoln, have you ever noticed that they seem to go out of their way to account for the otherwise (to them) inexplicable presence in Lincoln's career of men like Thurlow Weed? And God knows how many acres Lincoln biographers have plowed, to turn over a little soil to cover the presence of Simon Cameron in the cabinet.
But it wasn't Lincoln. These guys just sort of washed up on the shores of his career.
Hmmm. Seems like a silence has fallen. Did you ask the "wrong question"? -- LOL!
Thank you for your courteous reply.
I think slothful induction, as the offense is called in debating and logic circles, ought to be grounds for a time-out at least. But wait, we have to compound that with the second thing you noticed, to-wit:
But don't [expect] him or anyone on the wlat brigade to admit that anytime soon. Though they are less inclined to advertise it than with Lincoln, BJ Clinton is another of their secular saints. Thus any act of defense for him, no matter how fraudulent and dishonest it may be, is permissable to achieve the end of upholding his "image."
This raises the pointed question of why a couple of obvious DU trolls have been permitted to rant this long and this dishonestly, when any number of Buchananites and paleocons have supposedly --- documentably -- been shown the door.
It's an interesting proposition. Do you suppose it can be explained by analogy with trainers of pit bulls who kennel kittens and small dogs?
Regardless of cause, unilateral secession as practiced by the southern states was illegal. It would have been illegal regardless of which states had attempted it and when they had attempted it.
So do you have any evidence of the existence of something called "Black Confederate Soldiers Memorial Assn". I can't find any, but that's often par for the course when dealing with stand waite.
Point (2): The European banks could have funded steam/mechanical farming devices in Europe, but they weren't popular there either. (That is not to say they weren't used, just not used extensively. I'm not sure an agricultural comparison between G.B. and the U.S.A. is reasonable in any case. Much of the good farming land in G.B. was owned by the Church of England and various royals. They could afford extravagent machinery.)
Point (3): Almost every reference I have run across, including "dusty old tomes in the library" indicate these monsters were slow, cumbersome, and difficult to maintain. So is a Jaguar, but there are still lots of them on the road.
Point (4): My grandfather had a bunch of old museum pieces on his ranch. I learned to drive on an old Massey tractor (not a Massy-Ferguson!). Just because somebody took care of some equipment doesn't mean it was popular or extensively used. When he passed, he had a bunch of machinery in his equipment sheds for harvesting lima beans. These were complex harvesters, but beans hadn't been grown much in the area since the 1960's. Stuff worked fine though.
Point (5): We are in the United States, not Great Britain. You have provided no logical or reasonable explanation on how a Rube Goldberg contraption would have put 4,000,000 slaves out of business. You might as well have said slavery would have been eliminated in 5-10 years because the Starship Enterprise would have beamed them all up.
Point (6): It's not that I don't admit when I'm mistaken (case in point a few posts back when I mixed up the Grants and the Dents). It's that your suggestion is so far off the wall, even you fellow rebelites don't believe it! You are darn near a minority of one on that issue. But I'll say no more, not wanting to be responsible for bursting that bubble you're in! By the way, the more adjectives you use, the less credible you appear.
By the way, seen any of the revolutionary Stanley Steamers driving around lately? They've got one at Petersen's Auto Museum in Hollywood. It was such a good car, it put four million Fiat mechanics out of business!
Unfortunately, there is no response to this non-argument. "Illegal" is defined by the will and power to enforce, wich was proven demonstrably during the war. The moral implications of coerced Union are what is left to debate.
free the southland,sw
as i've said before, opinions are like bellybuttons: everyone has one & many of them stink.
free dixie,sw
i'm sure "good king george" & his henchmen would have taken the same position toward GW, GM & TJ and others of the American Revolution.
you are a scream.
free dixie,sw
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