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If Secession Was Illegal - then How Come...?
The Patriotist ^ | 2003 | Al Benson, Jr.

Posted on 06/12/2003 5:58:28 AM PDT by Aurelius

Over the years I've heard many rail at the South for seceding from the 'glorious Union.' They claim that Jeff Davis and all Southerners were really nothing but traitors - and some of these people were born and raised in the South and should know better, but don't, thanks to their government school 'education.'

Frank Conner, in his excellent book The South Under Siege 1830-2000 deals in some detail with the question of Davis' alleged 'treason.' In referring to the Northern leaders he noted: "They believed the most logical means of justifying the North's war would be to have the federal government convict Davis of treason against the United States. Such a conviction must presuppose that the Confederate States could not have seceded from the Union; so convicting Davis would validate the war and make it morally legitimate."

Although this was the way the federal government planned to proceed, that prolific South-hater, Thaddeus Stevens, couldn't keep his mouth shut and he let the cat out of the bag. Stevens said: "The Southerners should be treated as a conquered alien enemy...This can be done without violence to the established principles only on the theory that the Southern states were severed from the Union and were an independent government de facto and an alien enemy to be dealt with according to the laws of war...No reform can be effected in the Southern States if they have never left the Union..." And, although he did not plainly say it, what Stevens really desired was that the Christian culture of the Old South be 'reformed' into something more compatible with his beliefs. No matter how you look at it, the feds tried to have it both ways - they claimed the South was in rebellion and had never been out of the Union, but then it had to do certain things to 'get back' into the Union it had never been out of. Strange, is it not, that the 'history' books never seem to pick up on this?

At any rate, the Northern government prepared to try President Davis for treason while it had him in prison. Mr. Conner has observed that: "The War Department presented its evidence for a treason trial against Davis to a famed jurist, Francis Lieber, for his analysis. Lieber pronounced 'Davis will not be found guilty and we shall stand there completely beaten'." According to Mr. Conner, U.S. Attorney General James Speed appointed a renowned attorney, John J. Clifford, as his chief prosecutor. Clifford, after studying the government's evidence against Davis, withdrew from the case. He said he had 'grave doubts' about it. Not to be undone, Speed then appointed Richard Henry Dana, a prominent maritime lawyer, to the case. Mr. Dana also withdrew. He said basically, that as long as the North had won a military victory over the South, they should just be satisfied with that. In other words - "you won the war, boys, so don't push your luck beyond that."

Mr. Conner tells us that: "In 1866 President Johnson appointed a new U.S. attorney general, Henry Stanburg. But Stanburg wouldn't touch the case either. Thus had spoken the North's best and brightest jurists re the legitimacy of the War of Northern Aggression - even though the Jefferson Davis case offered blinding fame to the prosecutor who could prove that the South had seceded unconstitutionally." None of these bright lights from the North would touch this case with a ten-foot pole. It's not that they were dumb, in fact the reverse is true. These men knew a dead horse when they saw it and were not about to climb aboard and attempt to ride it across the treacherous stream of illegal secession. They knew better. In fact, a Northerner from New York, Charles O'Connor, became the legal counsel for Jeff Davis - without charge. That, plus the celebrity jurists from the North that refused to touch the case, told the federal government that they really had no case against Davis or secession and that Davis was merely being held as a political prisoner.

Author Richard Street, writing in The Civil War back in the 1950s said exactly the same thing. Referring to Jeff Davis, Street wrote: "He was imprisoned after the war, was never brought to trial. The North didn't dare give him a trial, knowing that a trial would establish that secession was not unconstitutional, that there had been no 'rebellion' and that the South had got a raw deal." At one point the government intimated that it would be willing to offer Davis a pardon, should he ask for one. Davis refused that and he demanded that the government either give him a pardon or give him a trial, or admit that they had dealt unjustly with him. Mr. Street said: "He died 'unpardoned' by a government that was leery of giving him a public hearing." If Davis was as guilty as they claimed, why no trial???

Had the federal government had any possible chance to convict Davis and therefore declare secession unconstitutional they would have done so in a New York minute. The fact that they diddled around and finally released him without benefit of the trial he wanted proves that the North had no real case against secession. Over 600,000 boys, both North and South, were killed or maimed so the North could fight a war of conquest over something that the South did that was neither illegal or wrong. Yet they claim the moral high ground because the 'freed' the slaves, a farce at best.


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To: stand watie
SORRY, N-S, but PistolPaknMama DID quote the exact date,section, page & column the last time it came up on the forum. you said, in response to her fact cite, that her source was false and from a known southron propaganda machine.

Wrong again. I don't recall the post and I sure didn't call it 'southron(sp) propaganda.' I don't recall ever using that term.

have you forgotten that????? or is it just "inconvienient" for you to remember, as it was when you asserted that the Black Confederate Soldiers Memorial Assn did NOT exist, when in fact you had posted comments on the thread that discussed the organization at length????

I'll stand by that. I am unfamiliar with any organization called "Black Confederate Soldiers Memorial Assn", your claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

1,861 posted on 07/22/2003 5:07:25 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: WhiskeyPapa
He went far beyond that. He supported voting rights for blacks.

...yet never repudiated colonization. Live with it, Walt. Lincoln promoted colonization policies to his dying day.

1,862 posted on 07/22/2003 8:17:19 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: mac_truck
My bad, I meant to say peckerwood. You're not smart enough to be the head of anything.

Dang. I guess I should renounce my membership in Mensa?

1,863 posted on 07/22/2003 8:19:42 PM PDT by 4CJ (Dims, living proof that almost everywhere, villages are missing their idiot.)
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To: nolu chan
And Lincoln DID summon Butler to Washington City in early 1865 via telegraph. The dims would have you believe that Butler ignored the summons.
1,864 posted on 07/22/2003 8:21:11 PM PDT by 4CJ (Dims, living proof that almost everywhere, villages are missing their idiot.)
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To: nolu chan; 4ConservativeJustices; Constitution Day; billbears
Wlat's posts are like guano deposited by the Tennessee Dingbat.

The same may be said for most of his followers as well. I had a little time off recently to compose...err...intercept the second installment of their meetings though:

SUPER DUPER ULTRA SECRET TRANSCRIPT OF THE WLAT BRIGADE:

The Quasi-Monthly Meeting of the Wlat Brigade

-or-

Why the Neo-Reconstructionists Have Taken a Strong Turn to the Left

mac_truck: Greetings fellow brigadiers! I convene to order quasi-monthly meeting of the Wlat Brigade and introduce to you our glorious leader: I present to you the Keeper of the Northern Faith, Defender of The Precious, Lord High Protector of The Union, and Leader of the Wlat Brigade, restored from his previous exile upon the Sea of Google to his rightful place in the Free Republic, Wlat!
Wlat: The Precious...my brigade. To order we must! Apprentice mac, to secrecy we go. Enact the code!
mac_truck: Brigadiers - to preserve the integrity of this meeting from the evil realm of the monarchists whose 170 year conspiracy to destroy our Union for purposes of requisitioning its land upon the queen's name, who desire so fervently to employ its resources towards their international attempts to requisition our precious bodily fluids, who orchestrate their workings amidst the LOSer separatists, who dump upon us their tools of their wicked freemasonry and lewrockwell.com, who mockingly call us by the name "leftist" to spite our expressed desired namesake of "progressives," and who campaign for our banishment from this meeting hall known as the free republic, I invoke the secret code.
justshutupandtakeit: Did you say monarchy?  I like monarchy...
Ditto: Is this thing on?
mac_truck: Brigadiers, to your specially issued decoder rings!
justshutupandtakeit: ...but only as long as its not called monarchy...
mac_truck: On my mark break seals...now!
justshutupandtakeit: ...and is called a magistrate, which is a monarchy...
mac_truck: Prepare to set decoders on my mark. Commence countdown...3...2...
justshutupandtakeit: ...but a magistrate isn't really a monarchy though since it is a magistrate...
mac_truck: ...1...mark. Foxtrot-Charlie-Delta-3-7-4-Quebec-6-2-9er. Stop. Confirm code:Yankee-Alpha-November-Kilo-Echo-Echo
-5-7-6-Delta-Oscar-Oscar-Delta-Lima-Echo-6-2-9er. Stop.
Non-Sequitur: 6-2-9er confirmed
Ditto: 6-2-9er locked and over.
justshutupandtakeit: 6-2-9er.
Grand Old Partisan: Excellent handling of the code, mac! 6-2-9er.
Wlat: 6-2-9er...and...lock. Buzzard circling the carcas. Repeat. Buzzard circling the carcas...and clear. The Precious is secure.
Grand Old Partisan: If I may direct everyone's attention for a moment, I'd like to offer you a special opportunity to buy my bo..
Wlat: ORDER! Let there be order. I know call upon the Imam rdf to provide us with the invocation.
rdf: Let us set forth our prayer mats and genuflect toward the temple of Lincoln. In the beginning there was the Union. And the Union was whole...one...united...Union. And the Union was good, said the united unificators in unity of the Union! And the Union was saved. Saved in the name of the Precious. The Lincoln. Our Father Abraham we call to you in the name of the Union you saved, you created, you preserved. The Union which gives us government, which gives us states to administer its will, which gives us...you, Father Abraham.
Wlat: Praise be!
rdf: We ask upon you to carry us forth your will in the blessed laws you have laid before us, the Tax'ria. Carry us forth into jihad against the neo-confederates as you carried the Union into jihad! And always remember my brothers in Lincoln, one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish, knick knack, paddy whack, give a dog a bone! We wait until the will of the prophet Lincoln, the beneficient and merciful, may he soon return to us, sets forth and saves the Union again...the one...the Lincoln...the madhi Lincoln, from his  under the hill we await your proclamation! Rest, oh ye followers of the Abratollah for the Precious is upon us!
Ditto: (clap...clap...clap)
Wlat: Thank you, imam richard.
rdf: I must now retire.
Wlat: We have much to discuss, my brigadiers. The Precious, attack it they will. The neoconfederates desire the precious. Desire it they do to destroy it.
Non-Sequitur: Squack! Destroy it they will! Tu quoque! Tu quoque! Like Lee destroyed Chambersburg! Squack!
mac_truck: But master, what shall we do?
Wlat: We have no choice but to counter...but to reveal. Reveal ourselves we shall. Reveal our Democrat selves.
Waltrot: But no! Hide it we must...for the precious...for the republicans...the republicans are our...our friends.
Grand Old Partisan: I wrote a book about the Republicans which you can purchase for only $29.9...
Ditto: But Walt! Isn't that what got you exiled last time? For revealing your Democrat affiliations?
mac_truck: No! That is only what they want you to believe.
Ditto: They?
mac_truck: The New World Order! Bush Sr. said it...in his speech. I heard it with my own eyes and Art Bell told me so!
Wlat: I'd vote for Bill Clinton again 1000 times out of 1000 over that retard clown dubya's pappy. He kept his son out of the draft
Non-Sequitur: Squack! Tu quoque! Daddy kept em out! Squack! Just like Jefferson Davis and little Joe, he did! Daddy kept 'em out too! Squack!
mac_truck: Yes, the New World Order exiled Walt to the Sea of Google and only by the merciful grace of Father Abraham did our leader return. But they are conspiring again. The New World Order. And the Queen of England, all through their paid neoconfederate henchmen on Free Republic, hired with the drug money of Buckingham palace. They're the same ones who impeached Bill Clinton, you know. Those...those...FREEPERS! The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy!
Wlat: But the Republicans are our cover and blow that cover...we cannot...preeeecioussss.

...stay tuned for future installments

1,865 posted on 07/22/2003 8:44:42 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
*footnote for the above: special thanks to the nation of islam wayans interpretation for Lincoln prayer material.
1,866 posted on 07/22/2003 8:46:24 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: mac_truck
Ah, the classic appeal to authority. After all, that is always where scoundrels go when they cannot refute the original material...as in what Blackstone himself said on the matter of perjury.
1,867 posted on 07/22/2003 8:50:15 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Butler didn't say in 1865 that the gist of any conversation he with President Lincoln /i>

How do you know he didn't, Walt? Do you have a tape recording of every conversation Butler ever had in 1865? The fact that he did not publish his recollections of it until later in no way means that it did not happen, nor does it mean that he failed to tell anybody of it.

It would have caused quite a stir.

No it wouldn't. Lincoln was publicly promoting colonization in his addresses to Congress only a couple years prior and that didn't cause the stir you describe, so little reason exists as to why this one would have.

I can't for the life of me understand the motivation of anyone who would push such a ridiculous idea

The only ridiculous idea being pushed around here is from you, Walt. That ridiculous idea is that Lincoln secretly abandoned his long held belief in colonization some time around 1863 despite the fact that ZERO records exist suggesting or documenting anything of the sort and despite the fact that Lincoln is known to have still been pushing colonization after 1863 by way of Mitchell.

The last documented official correspondence indicating that Lincoln was still into colonization was dated November 30, 1864 - the response from Bates to Lincoln's request of extending Mitchell's job as colonization commissioner. The last known letter on Mitchell's tenure was sent by one of Lincoln's senate allies and recieved by him a month later. Lincoln died on April 15, 1865, tax day, only 3 and 1/2 months after that last letter on Mitchell and only 4 and 1/2 months after the last known official correspondence on Lincoln's colonization policy. So if Lincoln had a change of opinion, it could only have happened in those 4 and 1/2 months between November 30, 1864 and April 15, 1865. If it did indeed happen there is NO RECORD WHATSOEVER indicating this to be so. There are no speeches in which he dropped colonization. There are no letters in which Lincoln repudiates colonization. There are no known or recorded conversations in which he is even alleged to have confided his repudiation of colonization to another person. But what we DO know is that on November 30, 1864 AG Edward Bates responded to Lincoln's request that Mitchell, his colonization commissioner, be retained to further carry out colonization policies.

Seeing as absolutely no indication whatsoever exists to demonstrate that Lincoln ever abandoned the colonization policies he was persuing as of November 30, 1864, it is not at all unreasonable to conclude that he was still espousing them in April 1865 at the time of Butler's recounted conversation. It is however ridiculous to claim, despite the complete and utter ABSENCE of any evidence, that Lincoln repudiated his colonization beliefs in this or any other period and in spite of all existing evidence suggesting that he did not. Of course you will never admit that because, as with all other things involving Lincoln, you cannot bring yourself about to admitting the fallability of your false god.

1,868 posted on 07/22/2003 11:45:10 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Butler didn't say in 1865 that the gist of any conversation he with President Lincoln

How do you know he didn't, Walt? Do you have a tape recording of every conversation Butler ever had in 1865? The fact that he did not publish his recollections of it until later in no way means that it did not happen, nor does it mean that he failed to tell anybody of it.

It would have caused quite a stir.

No it wouldn't. Lincoln was publicly promoting colonization in his addresses to Congress only a couple years prior and that didn't cause the stir you describe, so little reason exists as to why this one would have.

I can't for the life of me understand the motivation of anyone who would push such a ridiculous idea

The only ridiculous idea being pushed around here is from you, Walt. That ridiculous idea is that Lincoln secretly abandoned his long held belief in colonization some time around 1863 despite the fact that ZERO records exist suggesting or documenting anything of the sort and despite the fact that Lincoln is known to have still been pushing colonization after 1863 by way of Mitchell.

The last documented official correspondence indicating that Lincoln was still into colonization was dated November 30, 1864 - the response from Bates to Lincoln's request of extending Mitchell's job as colonization commissioner. The last known letter on Mitchell's tenure was sent by one of Lincoln's senate allies and recieved by him a month later. Lincoln died on April 15, 1865, tax day, only 3 and 1/2 months after that last letter on Mitchell and only 4 and 1/2 months after the last known official correspondence on Lincoln's colonization policy. So if Lincoln had a change of opinion, it could only have happened in those 4 and 1/2 months between November 30, 1864 and April 15, 1865. If it did indeed happen there is NO RECORD WHATSOEVER indicating this to be so. There are no speeches in which he dropped colonization. There are no letters in which Lincoln repudiates colonization. There are no known or recorded conversations in which he is even alleged to have confided his repudiation of colonization to another person. But what we DO know is that on November 30, 1864 AG Edward Bates responded to Lincoln's request that Mitchell, his colonization commissioner, be retained to further carry out colonization policies.

Seeing as absolutely no indication whatsoever exists to demonstrate that Lincoln ever abandoned the colonization policies he was persuing as of November 30, 1864, it is not at all unreasonable to conclude that he was still espousing them in April 1865 at the time of Butler's recounted conversation. It is however ridiculous to claim, despite the complete and utter ABSENCE of any evidence, that Lincoln repudiated his colonization beliefs in this or any other period and in spite of all existing evidence suggesting that he did not. Of course you will never admit that because, as with all other things involving Lincoln, you cannot bring yourself about to admitting the fallability of your false god.

1,869 posted on 07/22/2003 11:47:29 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
Abraham Lincoln Papers at the Library of Congress. Transcribed and Annotated by the Lincoln Studies Center, Knox College. Galesburg, Illinois.

From Edward Bates to Abraham Lincoln, November 30, 1864

Washington, Nov 30 1864.

Honored Sir,

I beg your pardon for having overlooked, in the pressure of business, in my latter days in the office, the duty to give formal answer to your question concerning your power still to retain the Revd Mr Mitchell as your assistant or aid in the matter of executing the several acts of Congress relating to the emigration or Colonizing of the freed blacks.

It is too late for me now to give a formal opinion upon the question, as this is my last day in office. I can only say that, having examined all the acts referred to, I am satisfied that, notwithstanding the act which repeals the appropriation contingently, you still have something to do, under those acts; and therefore, that you have the same right to continue Mr Mitchell that you had to appoint him originally. And I hope it will be done, for he seems to be a good man, of zeal & capacity.

Most respectfully Sir

Your obt servt

Edwd. Bates

1,870 posted on 07/23/2003 2:20:22 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: GOPcapitalist
ROTFLMAO!
1,871 posted on 07/23/2003 4:25:17 AM PDT by 4CJ (Dims, living proof that almost everywhere, villages are missing their idiot.)
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To: GOPcapitalist
Butler didn't say in 1865 that the gist of any conversation he with President Lincoln

How do you know he didn't, Walt? Do you have a tape recording of every conversation Butler ever had in 1865...

Lincoln worked hard for the passage of the 13th amendment. If he had suggested early in 1865 that black soldiers be -deported-, it would not have passed unnoticed until 1892.

"But the final version of the Thirteenth Amendment--the one ending slavery--has an interesting story of its own. Passed during the Civil War years, when southern congressional representatives were not present for debate, one would think today that it must have easily passed both the House of Representatives and the Senate. Not true. As a matter of fact, although passed in April 1864 by the Senate, with a vote of 38 to 6, the required two-thirds majority was defeated in the House of Representatives by a vote of 93 to 65. Abolishing slavery was almost exclusively a Republican party effort--only four Democrats voted for it.

It was then that President Abraham Lincoln took an active role in pushing it through congress. He insisted that the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment be added to the Republican party platform for the upcoming presidential elections. He used all of his political skill and influence to convince additional democrats to support the amendments' passage. His efforts finally met with success, when the House passed the bill in January 1865 with a vote of 119-56. Finally, Lincoln supported those congressmen that insisted southern state legislatures must adopt the Thirteenth Amendment before their states would be allowed to return with full rights to Congress.

The fact that Lincoln had difficulty in gaining passage of the amendment towards the closing months of the war and after his Emancipation Proclamation had been in effect 12 full months, is illustrative. There was still a reasonably large body of the northern people, or at least their elected representatives, that were either indifferent towards, or directly opposed to, freeing the slaves."

http://members.tripod.com/~greatamericanhistory/gr02011.htm

President Lincoln worked for -freedom- for the blacks. He -never- suggested that anyone be forced out of the country and after 1862, he paid little attention to colonization.

Walt

1,872 posted on 07/23/2003 4:38:23 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: GOPcapitalist
That ridiculous idea is that Lincoln secretly abandoned his long held belief in colonization some time around 1863 despite the fact that ZERO records exist suggesting or documenting anything of the sort...

Lincoln may have preferred colonization, but there is no doubt that he worked for equal rights.

Walt

1,873 posted on 07/23/2003 4:51:20 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: GOPcapitalist
A speech that was not transcribed in any paper but magically appeared at UT on an unknown date upon delivery by a person we know nothing about who simply professed to have a transcript? You'll have to do better than that, Walt.

Since it was called treason for Houston to make the speech, it's not a big surprise that it was not published.

The provenance of the text is beyond question.

Walt

1,874 posted on 07/23/2003 7:22:25 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: Non-Sequitur
OK. my apologies.

it was one of you damnyankee apologists on FR.

free dixie,sw

1,875 posted on 07/23/2003 8:59:47 AM PDT by stand watie (Resistence to tyrants is obedience to God. -Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Non-Sequitur
then why did you post comments about that organization on the thread??? have you "convieniently forgotten"???

free dixie,sw

1,876 posted on 07/23/2003 9:00:56 AM PDT by stand watie (Resistence to tyrants is obedience to God. -Thomas Jefferson)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
The provenance of the text is beyond question.

Then why can't you substantiate it with any credible sources?

1,877 posted on 07/23/2003 11:09:09 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
SUPER DUPER EXTRA SECRET WLAT BRIGADE TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED:

Waltrot: Blow it we must! It will...will..destroy the Precious! It is no longer the party of our Precious! No longer the party of Sumner!
Grand Old Partisan: One time Charles Sumner was walking through the railroad yards of Boston and a group of ex slaves came up to him and bowed to his feet saying "thank you marse' Sumner making us your voters" and Sumner, overcome with joy from their show of generosity, told them "you need not bow at my feet when the kissing of my ring will suffice," and for that reason he is, in the words of the great Robert Ingersoll, "the most generous of Republicans" (his words). You can read all about it if you buy more copies of my book.
mac_truck: Charles Sumner, ha! Wasn't he the fella who tried that legitimate impeachment of Andrew Johnson? Not like that fake one of Clinton. The right wing conspirators did that and they trashed our constitution to get Clinton over what? That's right. SEX. An adult consentual relationship with an intern.
tpaine: Typical. -- No rep_LY; to co'nstitutional _---------------------------------- rationality..
Ditto: How did you get in here?
tpaine: How did you get in here ---- #132- get in-I did; how ------------- Ditto ________ #138 Please, ad-mods - DO NOT. pUll -- THIS POST ======
Ditto: Whatever.
Non-Sequitur: Squack! Tu quoque! Lee did it to! Squack!
Wlat: Then to the left must we turn?
Waltrot: No! Precious we may save by being the left but saying the right. Welfare is conservative, we tell them. Taxes are capitalist, we say. The Lincoln is progressive and progressive is the right and neo-confederates are the left.
justshutupandtakeit: But welfare is a conservative part of capitalism because it keeps the labor class from poverty. And taxes protect us from competition abroad just like Hamilton said...
Grand Old Partisan: That's right cause the neoconfederates are all Democrats and their history is all written by Democrats, which you can read about if you buy my book.
justshutupandtakeit: ...but Hamilton said taxes protect us, but protectionist taxes are not protectionist...
mac_truck: Should we align ourselves officially with any organizations, mars' Wlat? Cause I know one called the World Socialist Website - they're a legitimate political organization and even have James McPherson to vouch for them.
Wlat: Of primary concern it is to protect...protect the preeeecious!
mac_truck: Well, can we? Or how about utilizing your connections in the Democratic Party, Wlat?
justshutupandtakeit: ...and a good magistrate will install protectionist taxes like a monarch, even though he isn't a monarch but a monarchial magistrate which is a monarch but not a monarch...
Ditto: Gee, takeit. What on earth are you talking about?
justshutupandtakeit: Quit talking to me! You are changing the words! You are changing the meaning of the words that I am saying! But they're not really words, they're phrases...
Wlat: Then agreed we are. Disguise the left and call it the right.
justshutupandtakeit: ...in fact they are not even taxes, just administrative fees upon the states...
Wlat: Then our plan of attack is set. Mac - you initiate phase one by defending President Clinton. Devise a defense against impeachment then call it strict constructionist
mac_truck: I am no longer mac. You will call me Rusty. Rusty Shackleford.
justshutupandtakeit:...but they aren't really states because they had to be created by the union...
Wlat: Non-Seq - you work to portray that joker puppet Dubya as a draft dodger, but don't let it be confused with Robert Lincoln.
Non-Sequitur: Draft dodger Bush! Tu quoque! Davis did it too! Tu quoque! Squack!
justshutupandtakeit: ...which isn't really a union, but is The Union, and you are engaging sophistry to call it something other than The Union and just a union!
Wlat: Partisan - you will study up on Julian Bond. Mimic his words and strategies for his goals are the same as our own.
Grand Old Partisan: I'll go a step further and write them into my book, which by the way you can buy if you visit my website.
justshutupandtakeit: ...and The Union, which is a Union but ceases to be a Union says we should buy, which means purchase but not buy, Partisan's book cause it's really good and great, but good isn't great and great is good...
Wlat: justshutupandtakeit - you keep up right where you are. Tell us the virtues of Hamilton and his tax and spend successors, then convince everyone that Hamiltonianism leads to limited government conservatism unlike Jefferson, who is a leftist.
Grand Old Partisan: Jefferson was the limousine liberal of his day. I forgot to put that in my book, but you can still buy it anyway at my website.
Wlat: And Ditto - you act as our reserve unit to take the place of any others who fall into exile. Oh, and mac...
mac_truck: Rusty. My new name is Rusty.
Wlat: Er, a Rusty. Yes. Your appreticeship progresses greatly. In due time I shall bestow the level of master upon you.
mac_truck: That's great Walt but...but I fear the transmission is disrupting. They...they're spying. The Knights of the Golden Circle have constructed a large mirror device with the money Judah Benjamin stole from the New Orleans mint and transferred through the Hapsburgs to the south american confederate colony. It's...disrupting our coder. End connection! End connection!
Grand Old Partisan: Before we go I still have several unsold copies of my book for anyone who is interested.
Wlat: That should conclude the day's business. This meeting stands adjourned. May the Lincoln be with you!
[end transcript]

1,878 posted on 07/23/2003 11:15:42 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: WhiskeyPapa
What Butler said has been corroborated and authenticated by multiple reputable historians.

Scores of historians have spent countless hours trying to discredit Butler and his story. but since it is impossible to prove a nagative, and since, as other historians have pointed out, Butler's account is "full and circumstantial" and there was no reason for him to lie, these efforts have proved fruitless. More to the point, Lincoln said the same thing about colonization and his fear of Black violence to others (see page 615). Based on these and other factors, some scholars, Ludwell H. Johnson (68) and Herman Belz (282) among them, have concluded that there is no reason to doubt the butler account. "If Butler's recollection is substantially correct, as it appears to be," George Frederickson said, "then one can only conclude that Lincoln continued to his dying day to deny the possibility of racial harmony and equality in the United States and persisted in regarding colonization as the only real alternative to perpetual race conflict" (57)

Forced Into Glory, Lerone Bennett, Jr., p. 167

Citations:

Belz, Herman, Reconstructing the Union. Ithaca, 1969.

Frederickson, George M. "A Man but Not a Brother: Abraham Lincoln and Racial Equality," Journal of Southern History 41 (February 1975): 39-58.

Johnson, Ludwell. "Lincoln and Equal Rights: The Authenticity of the Wadsworth Letter," Journal of Southern History 32 (Sept. 1966): 83-7


Congressman Julian, who conferred with Lincoln often as a member of the powerful Joint Committee on the Conduct ofthe War, used almost the same words, saying that when Lincoln "very reluctantly issued his preliminary proclamation ... he wished it distinctly understood that the deportation of the slaves was, in his min, inseparably connected with the policy" (RR 61)

Forced Into Glory, Lerone Bennett, Jr., p. 510

Citation:

Allen T. Rice, Reminiscences of Abraham Lincoln by Distinguished Men of His Time. New York, 1888.


Looking back later, Rev. Mitchell said, according to an interview published in the St. Louis Daily Globe-Democrat, August 26, 1894, that he asked a Presbyterian pastor to recommend a local man who could help him organize Illinois for the American Colonization Society. The pastor recommended Lincoln, who didn't, Mitchell said, look like much but who had a firm grasp of the politics of colonization and what Mitchell had done in Indiana. Lincoln was thirty-four years old when he met Mitchell. What did he believe? He "earnestly believed in and advocated colonization as a means of solving 'the race problem,'" Mitchell said. The two men became friends or at least associates, and Lincoln later names Mitchell commissioner of [Black] emigration in the Lincoln administration.

Forced Into Glory, Lerone Bennett, Jr., p. 226


This was not an ad hoc political tactic or a hastily devised response to the pressure of events -- this was, Lincoln's emigration aide Rev. James Mitchell told the St. Louis Daily Globe-Democrat on August 16, 1894, the foundation of Lincoln's private and public policy. It was "his honest conviction that it was better for both races to separate. This was the central point of his policy, around which hung all his private views, and as far as others would let him, his public acts" [Italics added] Lincoln was "fully convinced" that "the republic was already dangerously encumbered with African blood that would not legally mix with American [sic] . . . . He regarded a mixed race as eminently anti-republican, because of the heterogeneous character it gives the population where it exists, and for similar reasons he did not favor the annexation of tropical lands encumbers with mixed races ...."

Forced Into Glory, Lerone Bennett, Jr., p. 384


Lincoln's emigration aide, the Rev. James Mitchell, said the Proclamation "did not change Mr. Lincoln's policy of colonization, nor was it so intended." On August 18, 1863, seven months after the signing of the Proclamation and three months before the Gettysburg Address, Mitchell said he asked Lincoln if the "might say that colonization was still the policy of the Administration." Lincoln replied twice, he said, that "I have never thought so much on any subject and arrived at a conclusion so definite as I have in this case, and in after years found myself wrong." Lincoln added that "it would have been much better to separate the races than to have such scenes as those in New York [during the Draft Riots] the other day, where Negroes were hanged to lamp posts."

Forced Into Glory, Lerone Bennett, Jr., p. 554


What the evil political pimp Lincoln said in public cannot be reconciled with what he did when not in public. This is very much like your other hero, Slick Willie.

The evil political pimp Lincoln appointed and supported the sick, perverted, twisted James Mitchell for years as the Agent of [Black] Emigration, i.e., Commissioner of Ethnic Cleansing.

Only someone with a single-digit IQ would invoke the public pronouncements of any politician as gospel, much less the public pronouncements of a political pimp such as Lincoln.

As you know, Lincoln and Pimp are synonymous. I understand how difficult it is to desire to pray to your deity and think Oh Father Abraham, Pimp, Pimp, Pimp.... Oh Father Pimp... Oh Pimp... Pimp, Pimp, Pimp...

And then you try to blot out the words, and go visual only, and come up with the image of Yasser Arafat.

Oh the horror! Trying to pray to your deity and coming up with Pimp Pimp Pimp Yasser Arafat.

I'm sure this is what leaves you incontinent at times. I just want you to know that I feel your pain. I do. I really do.

Perhaps you might try sitting on a mountaintop in Tibet and meditating with Richard Gere.

1,879 posted on 07/23/2003 12:31:55 PM PDT by nolu chan
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To: GOPcapitalist; WhiskeyPapa; Non-Sequitur; justshutupandtakeit; mac_truck; Grand Old Partisan
Delightful post. The caricatures are so wonderfully true to life. But I have to ask: Is the provenance of the text beyond question?


1,880 posted on 07/23/2003 5:11:34 PM PDT by Aurelius
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