Happy 2004
Posted on 04/19/2003 7:55:27 AM PDT by Between the Lines
One cannot help noticing the interest in Calvinism lately expressed among some Baptists has prompted from others a cry of alarm. One group tends to represent the Baptist heritage as passively shaped by Calvinism, and the other wishes to deny the Calvinist (or Reformed) influence completely. The truth is somewhere in-between.
The concern for eliminating the Calvinist influence among Baptists is misguided.
Every body of believers needs to be in touch with the best of its theological tradition. For Baptists, that tradition is Reformed, or Calvinist, thought. Those who wish to look into this view need only discover for themselves the evident Calvinism of the Particular Baptist London Confession of 1644 and the even more pointedly Calvinist nature of the Second London Confession of 1677. These statements, along with the Savoy Confession and the Westmins ter Confession, evidently came from a co mmon stock of doctrinal expression. The words of the 1644 Confession and its successors are suggestive of Calvin's "Institutes" and not at all of, for instance, the early Anabaptist Schleitheim Confession. This is true not only in the ordinary sense of common vocabulary and system, but also in regard to the tone and the habitual focus. Again, one can point to the undisguised Reformed theology of John Gill, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Andrew Fuller, Isaac Backus, Richard Furman, Basil Manly Sr., James Petigrew Boyce and quite a number of others who were powerfully instrumental in the doctrinal expression of Baptists through the middle part of the twentieth century.
All this has been vigorously preached by the defenders of Calvinist theology, only they have sometimes taken an additional, and unwarranted, step further. They often assume that this put Baptists (especially Southern Baptists) right in line with the most extreme expressions of Calvinism. They assume that Baptists must be advocates of the Canons of Dort, the famous five-point Calvinism that was formulated some half- century after John Calvin himself was dead. Or they align Baptists with the hard-edged Calvinism of early New England Puritan thought. In fact, the Reformed thought that most influenced Baptists, especially in the South, was one that had been softened and moderated by Scottish Common Sense philosophy and by the Baptists' own insistence upon the competence of believers to respond in faith to the gospel.
Interestingly enough, along with this Calvinism moderated by Scottish Presbyterians and Baptists of the American South came a real openness to the strongest and best of Christian thinkers from other traditions. The great Broadus, who set the standard for intelligent and heart-felt preaching among Baptists, remembered with gratitude that the advanced students of Boyce, the founder of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, read from Turrettini (a moderate Reformed thinker) and Thomas Aquinas. E.Y. Mullins, Southern Seminary's president for the first quarter of the 20th century, could adapt Schleiermacher's insights to a basically Reformed worldview.
Some worry about an "aggressive Calvinism" on college campuses. I worry more about a fundamental resistance to any vigorous kind of theological thinking. For the life of me, I cannot see that college campuses are about to be overrun by Calvinists--aggressive or otherwise. If there is genuine theological study going on, which in fact there is, then it is a matter for which we might be grateful. I am concerned about aggressive relativism in ethics and religion; I am concerned about aggressive nihilism in the moral life of college students; I am concerned about aggressive addictions and aggressive sexually transmitted diseases; I am concerned about aggressive indifference in the formation of the intellect among students.
But aggressive Calvinism? I haven't seen that yet. And I do find, however, among our best students an appreciation for the ordered, energetic, biblical teachings of John Calvin and some of his followers. To reject this rich tradition by pretending it has nothing to do with Baptist history would be wasteful and wrongheaded. To confuse the distinctive Baptist form of this tradition with its most radical historical expressions is to miss the Baptist genius that reshaped Calvinism in a way that proved fruitful for the aspiring denomination of Baptist Christians in America.
Laissez faire theology, which forgets its debt to thinkers of the past, may do for a period of time. In fact, that has mostly been the state of things since World War II, after which careful theological teaching was submerged in denominational boosterism and a cult of personality, with results that we have sadly lived with these past two decades. The atheological approach to church life leaves us narrow-minded and unimaginative, merely reciting the prejudices we have gathered like lint over the past 50 years; while a well- wrought theological tradition keeps us alive to conversation partners from every Christian generation, providing a foundation of substance for our mission and our ministry. As P.T. Forsyth once wrote, "The non-theological Christ is popular; he wins votes; but he is not mighty; he does not win souls; he does not break men into small pieces and create them anew."
A.J. Conyers is professor of theology at Baylor University's George W. Truett Theological Seminary in Waco
Your implication was that angels and men are mutually exclusive, separate creations as you guys like to say. To my understanding, they are the same creation. As I understand the Scriptures, we were the angels of heaven before we were born here. That is what we have fallen from.
What scripture would you use to support your belief that men and angels are different stages of the same creation ... and how would such a belief reconcile with this scriptural passage ... ?Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?Also, ... in your referenced passage ...
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.Revelation 22:8-9... isn't the angel simply claiming to be a fellow servant to John and the prophets ?
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Revelation 21:17, 22:8-9 and many verses in latter-day revelation that show that many who have gone through mortality are sent back by God at a later date as ministering angels. For example:
D&C 128:20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!The following took place April 3, 1836, one week after the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. I include the whole section because the first part shows that Jesus Christ is a Resurrected Being today, just as He was in Luke 24:39 ("behold my hands and my feet"), Acts 7:55-56 (Stephen's theophany), Revelation chapter 1, and so forth:
D&C 110:1-16(Compare Revelation 1:13-19)
1 THE veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.>> how would such a belief reconcile with this scriptural passage ... ?
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
Those verses really give the Calvinists problems. "A little lower than the angels" does not square very well with the extremes they go to in describing their views on Total Depravity.
Unless you interpret (in a very unBiblical way) "thou hast made him a little lower" to mean created out of nothing at that moment, there is nothing to reconcile.
We were with God before this world was:
D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
LDS Pearl of Great Price, Moses 3:3-5 (compare Genesis 2:3-5)In our fallen state, considering the behavior we see around us in this world, I think "a little lower than the angels" is quite a generous statement.
3 And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.
4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;
>> Also, ... in your referenced passage ... (Revelation 22:8-9) ... isn't the angel simply claiming to be a fellow servant
Yes, John's fellow servant, and then adds that he is one of John's brethren the prophets, and that he is one of them which keep the sayings of this book, in other words, he is one of the faithful saints who has passed on to his reward, who has been resurrected, and who now appears in glory.
The angel was speaking to John in frank humility, saying that despite his glorious appearance, awesome ability to show John heavenly things and speak the words of the Lord (verses 12-13 for example) he was not a proper object of worship: "Worship God", the angel said.
Revelation 21:17, 22:8-9 and many verses in latter-day revelation that show that many who have gone through mortality are sent back by God at a later date as ministering angels.Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.It should be noted that this passage does not say that angels and men are the same creation, ... only that, ... in this case, ... the stature of a man is comparable to the apparent stature of the angel making the measurements.Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.Once again, this passage only states that the angel is a fellowservant of John ... and of the prophets ... and of those who keep the sayings of the book.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
I agree with you that the point of the verses is the exhortation to worship neither man, ... nor angel, ... nor any other created being, ... but God alone.
To my knowledge, ... there are no passages in the Bible which definitely support the idea that mankind descends from the fallen angels.
Rather, per my study, ... mankind and angels appear to be separate, though in some ways similar (i.e. having free will), creations.
In your belief system, ... isn't Satan the chief of the fallen angels ... and the demons those angels which fell with him ?
Why is it that we are provided with no Biblical support for his incarnation (into humanity) ? In other words, why would only some of the fallen angels be incarnated into humanity ?
Your implication was that angels and men are mutually exclusive, separate creations as you guys like to say. To my understanding, they are the same creation. As I understand the Scriptures, we were the angels of heaven before we were born here. That is what we have fallen from.
I see where you are finally coming from now: now that you say you consider angels and men to be of the same substance.
Since you don't like the HEADING, CLAIMING it to NOT be 'scripture' then I'll highlight the 'scripture' for you as well
Nine of the Twelve desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ's kingdom when they die--The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again--They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. [Between A.D. 34 and 35]
As I understand the Scriptures.... Shows just what happens when the LDS organizational writings trump the Holy Bible. NO ONE in the 'rest' of Christianity thinks along these lines!1. AND it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?
2. And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.
3. And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find rest.
4. And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?
5. And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.
6. And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.
7.Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8. And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
While I do appreciate your opinion, I'd like to see an official LDS publication that picks apart these creeds.
Why do you read "apparent" in there? Why, for that matter, do you read "different creation" into Bible accounts of men and angels?
>> Once again, this passage only states that the angel is a fellowservant of John ... and of the prophets ... and of those who keep the sayings of the book.
We disagree there. I told you how I read the passage in my #164.
>> I agree with you that the point of the verses is the exhortation to worship neither man, ... nor angel, ... nor any other created being, ... but God alone. To my knowledge, ... there are no passages in the Bible which definitely support the idea that mankind descends from the fallen angels.
Where did that come from? To my knowledge, no one has proposed that mankind descends from fallen angels. I have been talking about ministering angels sent by God. I have not mentioned Satan and his fallen angels in this discussion, though clearly it is time to get into that.
My use of the word "fallen" was to give my opinion from my Scripture study that we were the angels of heaven, the angels of God, the hosts of heaven, before we were born here, and that that is what we have fallen from, as we come to this earth and become subject to the fall of Adam.
>> In your belief system, ... isn't Satan the chief of the fallen angels ... and the demons those angels which fell with him ?
Yes.
>> Why is it that we are provided with no Biblical support for his incarnation (into humanity) ? In other words, why would only some of the fallen angels be incarnated into humanity ?
He didn't, and they weren't, none of them.
Lucifer rebelled when Jesus Christ was appointed by God the Father to create this earth, raise up prophets and give them commandments, and come here Himself to make the atoning sacrifice necessary for us to return home to God. Lucifer's counterfeit counterproposal was not accepted.
Because of his rebellion, Lucifer ("bearer of light" in Latin) became Satan (slanderer, adversary) and drew a third of the hosts of heaven after him. Their punishment was that their spirit bodies would never be "added upon" with a physical body such as we were coming to Earth to obtain.
(We see in Matthew 8:30-32 how the legion of devils preferred to hijack the bodies of swine rather than have no physical body at all. For their part, the swine would rather drown than be possessed.)
LDS Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3:22-28
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
LDS Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:1-4This is the bondage of sin, that those who do not hearken to the voice of God become Satan's captives and subject to his will.
1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
I consider both angels and men to be children of God. (I wouldn't use the phrase "same substance", too Nicene-Creedish.)
>> As I understand the Scriptures.... Shows just what happens when the LDS organizational writings trump the Holy Bible.
I presume you are talking of the LDS Scriptures, and I take exception to the word "trump". The Word of God is the Word of God, and no portion of it "trumps" another portion.
>> NO ONE in the 'rest' of Christianity thinks along these lines!
Along the lines of men and angels both being the children of God, or along the lines of the three Nephites never tasting of death (like Enoch who was translated or Elijah who was taken up in a flaming chariot)?
"The very foundation"? Our foundation is Christ.
People keep repeating what Jesus said to Joseph Smith when he asked which church to join, and when they repeat His words, they emphasize the words "creeds" and "abomination". So I offer my understanding of why He would consider the creeds an abomination in His sight. That's all.
Come to think of it, your idea of "same substance" is much better than the Nicene Creed's idea of it.
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To: Elsie
My #171: (I wouldn't use the phrase "same substance", too Nicene-Creedish.)
Come to think of it, your idea of "same substance" is much better than the Nicene Creed's idea of it. 174 posted on 01/03/2004 3:12:42 AM CST by White Mountain (By their fruits ye shall know them.) |
NIV 1 Corinthians 3:10-11
10. By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.
11. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.Ephesians 2:19-20
19. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,
20. built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.1 Timothy 3:14-16
14. Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that,
15. if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
16. Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
The one you left out:
Men and angels are the same creatures, just in different points on the continum.
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... the stature of a man is comparable to the apparent stature of the angel making the measurements.
Why do you read "apparent" in there? Why, for that matter, do you read "different creation" into Bible accounts of men and angels?
Because the appearance of angels can be very different than that of man ...Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:Where did that come from? To my knowledge, no one has proposed that mankind descends from fallen angels. I have been talking about ministering angels sent by God. I have not mentioned Satan and his fallen angels in this discussion, though clearly it is time to get into that.
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, ...
My use of the word "fallen" was to give my opinion from my Scripture study that we were the angels of heaven, the angels of God, the hosts of heaven, before we were born here, and that that is what we have fallen from, as we come to this earth and become subject to the fall of Adam.
So ... how is it that we have fallen from our angelic status ?
I assummed that you were referring to the fall of Lucifer and his following.
Was there some other fall of the angels ?
Do you have any scripture (that we share in common) to support this position ?
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