Conservatives Fight Over Islam

NewsMax.com ^ | Feb. 20, 2003 | Wes Vernon

[TLBSHOW]

Conservatives Fight Over Islam

Wes Vernon, NewsMax.com

Thursday, Feb. 20, 2003

WASHINGTON – A fierce, nearly three-week running battle of accusations and counter-accusations between two conservative icons has brought to the front burner a long-festering debate among President Bush’s supporters on how far the White House should go in seeking Islamic support.

Frank Gaffney, president of the Center for Security Policy and a former assistant secretary of defense in the Reagan administration, has accused two White House officials – Ali Talbah and his predecessor Sukhail Khan – of putting President Bush in the company of “people who have made no secret of their sympathy for terrorists, provided them financial support, excused their murderous attacks and/or sought to impede the prosecution of the war against them.” Gaffney reiterated these charges in his Washington Times column Tuesday.

Gaffney’s initial comment in this flap came at the annual Conservative Political Action Conference on Jan. 31.

His remarks sparked a stinging rebuttal from Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform and one-time confidant of Newt Gingrich when the latter was speaker of the House.

“There is no place in the conservative movement for racial prejudice, religious bigotry or ethnic hatred,” Norquist told Gaffney in a Feb. 5 letter. He went on to accuse his fellow conservative of attacking each of the two White House officials because of their Muslim faith.

Norquist then banished Gaffney from further attendance at his influential coalition meetings that he holds every Wednesday, pending an accepted apology to Tulbah and Sukhail. He added, “It is important that we, as conservatives, stand up against bigotry, racism, and religious hatred whenever it raises its ugly head.”

Gaffney replied with a three-and-a-half page single-spaced letter to Norquist that offered no apology. Gaffney not only refused to apologize but also cited chapter and verse of quotes from radical Islamic fundamentalists (Wahhabists) who had been received cordially at the White House.

He also stressed that he had taken pains to “express distinction between such Islamists, and what is, I believe, the majority of Muslims in this country whom the former [Wahhabists] are determined to recruit, intimidate, and dominate through a variety of techniques.”

The CSP boss took Norquist to task for his involvement with Islamic Institute, through which, Gaffney argued, Norquist and his associates had been instrumental in “promoting and facilitating Wahabbis’ access to the executive and legislative branches of government” and thereby “could prove politically damaging and strategically detrimental to our cause and the well-being of our country.”

Norquist says Islamic Institute “was formed to promote within the Muslim world the fact that the Koran and Islam are perfectly consistent with a free and open society.”

In an interview with NewsMax.com, Norquist said he wrote his letter because the two young White House Muslims whom Gaffney criticized were merely underlings carrying out decisions made by more senior White House officials.

“He decided to single out the kid who was a Muslim in both cases, even though the people making decisions are Presbyterians and Catholics, not Muslims,” the ATR president said.

In his latest column, Gaffney reports that one Muslim representative in a group visiting the Oval Office just days after 9/11, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, had said two days before the attack: “This country is facing a terrible fate. This country stands condemned.”

Why FBI Couldn’t Find Him

When FBI agents visited Yusuf’s home, they were stunned to learn from his wife that he was unavailable because he was with the president.

However, Norquist, while “not vouching for anyone,” said the Muslims who had access to the president passed muster with the Secret Service and the FBI or they wouldn’t have been there.

“If they were a security risk, not if they said something stupid, if they were a security risk or a problem ... the Secret Service would pull them out,” he said.

Gaffney describes as “bizarre” FBI Director Robert Mueller’s decision to speak to the American Muslim Council last year despite that group’s “long record of activities hostile to the Bush administration’s prosecution of the war on terror.”

Walking the sometimes unclear lines between peace-loving Muslim Americans and those who pose a threat is a dilemma symbolized by the bitter dispute between Gaffney and Norquist, two well-known conservatives in the Bush constituency.

[hchutch]

Slander is wrong, though, and right now it looks like Gaffney has goen down to that level. Either he has proof, which he is obligaterd to produce since he has made these allegations, or he needs to apologize to the White House aide he mentioned at CPAC.

Gaffney should not get a pass because he happens to be conservative.

[justshe]

When I stated that your agenda is clear, you confirmed that with this:

I have no problem living with Buddists, Hindus, Jews, Taoists, Confucianists, Protestants, Mormons, Catholics, Animists, ancestor-worshipers, Athiests or even Wiccans, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT PROFESS A NEED TO DECEIVE AND MURDER EVERYONE ELSE.

You state you have 3 friends who are Muslim and you further state:

Nor do I desire or call for the maltreatment of Muslims in any way. I just think it's foolish to blind ourselves to the truth, especially when that truth is a serious threat to our survival.

Have shared your beliefs with your Muslim friends?

My 'agenda' is this: I abhor the violent actions of any sect, division, or indivudual(s) who wrap themselves in the fanatical religious fervor with the intent to do harm in the advance of their religion. The difference I see is that you hold a belief that all Muslims are committed to doing YOU (generic) harm and you wish all to be eradicated (again generic) from the population of the United States. I do not.

If I have misunderstood your comments, please explain.

And, please do not feel the need to post more quotes from the Koran. As many scholars have stated, historical interpretation of much of the Koran is paramount. I do not wish to debate specific passages, nor will I. And no, I am not a Muslim.

[Sabertooth]

Look, a lot of this is an issue because Frank Gaffney made some comments about a White House aide that were VERY close to slanderous. Comments that at least TWO Freepers heard firsthand. Both of those Freeprs felt that Norquist's characterization of them was accurate.

< -snip- >

Had he merely expressed concern about some of the Moslem leaders that were in the White House, Norquist would not have a leg to stand on. But Gaffney made serious accusations he did NOT back up with proof at CPAC, and Norquist called him on it.

Norquist's "bad advice" aside, he appears to be right about Gaffney's comments. Hold Norquist accountable, but if Gaffney does NOT produce proof of his allegations against that aide, then he'd better be held accountable, too. And quite frankly, I consider slander to be far worse than "giving bad advice."

For Gaffney's actual comments, go here:

Muslim council takes complaints to Bush
(Grover Norquist Alert)

For sourced verification of the substance of Gaffney's charges, scroll down to #28. There is no slander, but I'm sure Frank Gaffney would welcome any such legal challenge by Ali Tulbah, Suhail Khan, or Gover Norquist in open court.

Norquist is already on the ropes, and doesn't know it. He's about to become as much a liability as Trent Lott.

[hchutch]

And Debbie Schlussel's credibility was questioned here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/848113/posts?page=345#345

[Mo1]

but I'm sure Frank Gaffney would welcome any such legal challenge

I am sure he would .. but at this point as far as I'm concerned Mr. Gaffney can go piss up a rope

[Sabertooth]

I am sure he would .. but at this point as far as I'm concerned Mr. Gaffney can go piss up a rope

I've provided sourced information confirming Gaffney's charges at the thread linked at #383 above. Why are you upset with him, and not with Norquist, who has blundered unbelievably in putting Bush in this position?

And while you're thinking about that, may I suggest you answer on the public thread, rather than here in the backroom?

[Mo1]

I am aware of Mr. Gaffney's charges .. but I'm still waiting for the evidence .. is there an investigation being done on Mr. Norquist .. if so then I will comment on that ..

As for my response here .. You pinged me here .. please see post # 383

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/848113/posts?page=383#383

[Thorondir]

The difference I see is that you hold a belief that all Muslims are committed to doing YOU (generic) harm and you wish all to be eradicated (again generic) from the population of the United States. I do not.

If I have misunderstood your comments, please explain.

Yes, sir. You have misunderstood me a little. Perhaps I have not made myself clear.

I do NOT believe that all muslims want to do us harm. Nor do I believe they are all bad. I believe their religion is inherently violent, oppressive and misogynistic. I believe it is a satanic death cult, but that it does not appear so to them.

Nor do I want muslims eradicated from the population of the United States. I don't want them eradicated from anywhere. I just don't want their evil, murderous death-cult witewashed as something benign.

Where Muslims bear arms against innocent unarmed people, I want them swatted down and swatted down hard. That's the extent of it. I would feel the same if anyone of any religion were doing it. But no religion calls for this like Islam does.

And, no, I have not brought my concerns to my Muslim friends. For the life of me, I don't know how to do that. How would you do it? What would you say to me if I were a good friend to you, and yet professed my faith in a religion that named you as a low-life infidel who must be oppressed or killed if you refuse to convert to my religion?

P.S. The Muslims do this wherever they know they can get away with it. They know they cannot do it in America. Not yet anyway. But Islam is the fastest growing religion in America. Perhaps they will get their way and you and I will die together at their hands. Or perhaps our children will die together. Or (God forbid!) my grandchildren will convert to Islam and kill yours.

Peace be with you, sir.

[Sabertooth]

I am aware of Mr. Gaffney's charges .. but I'm still waiting for the evidence .. is there an investigation being done on Mr. Norquist .. if so then I will comment on that ..

As for my response here .. You pinged me here .. please see post # 383

Gaffney's charges, in his own words, and the evidence supporting them, are posted on the other thread, to which I pinged you, by name, right here...

---

To: justshe; Mo1; Howlin; ohioWfan; A Citizen Reporter

FYI: another opportunity, with plenty of sourced information, to discuss the substance of the charges that Grover Norquist has provided radical, terroist sympathizing Islamists with access to President Bush.

21 posted on 02/21/2003 10:10 AM PST by Sabertooth

---

LINK

Conveniently, now, you no longer need to content yourself with "still waiting for the evidence."

No one does. Your reply over there will be most welcome.

[Mo1]

No one does. Your reply over there will be most welcome

Fine .. I replied on the other thread .. happy now

[ImpBill]

Don't know what your beef is and frankly don't give a damn. I am pleased that the folks were indicted by the Bush DOJ and I am sure the President is pleased. What you fail to grasp and many others is that the thread is not about GW but about Grover Norquist and if you can't grasp that then I am indeed the "superior one" since you brought it up.

It seems that some of you Bush Bots can't differentiate supporters of GW and those that would bring him down. Norquists putting GW in the position to be bit in the butt by a none too friendly media in the first place should be enough to have the guy fired. And whether you, nor I, nor any supporter of GW thinks that these photo ops and favors done for the Al Arian family is akin to the Clinton/Dope Dealer pix nor AlGore/Buddhist Temple pix also isn't the issue. What is the issue is that Grover Norquist put "our" President in the position that opponents will love to take capital from.

[Commander8]

I'll take the word of Frank Gaffney over Grosser Nosetwist anyday.

[ImpBill]

You are correct, Clinton did protect them for his hush money and Bush hasn't. To the contrary the Bush DOJ is "on the job". But the point of the thread is that Grover Norquist has placed GW in the position of having the appearance of surrounding himself with folks that would like to see us destroyed. Gafney calls Norquist on it and Norquist slams Gafney as being a racist.

I don't know what all the fuss is about on this thread.

Grover Norquist appearantly has not been acting in either the nations, nor our Presidents best interests and needs to be sent back down to the minor leagues or out of the game altogether.

Folks around here are so busy attacking the messanger, TBLSHOW, they have entirely missed the message.

But that seems to happen all to often on FR these days when anything pops up that could cast a shadow on the GW Presidency. There is a core of GW supporters here that in many ways mirror the Clinton Bots, post and current.

[Freedom2specul8]

Do you agree that norquist is the problem here? I'm confused about what the problem is.

[hchutch]

First of all, the photos with Al Arian were before 9/11.

Second, absent proof that Bush knew Al Arian was on the watch list at the time of those photos, there's not much there other than a hit piece that will be quickly seen as such.

Third, in the face of these current meetings, has there been ANYHTING remotely resembling proof that these meetings and photos caused a change in policy that has benefited these groups or their agenda to the detriment of the United States. Certainly, it did not help Al Arian avoid doing the perp walk.

Furthermore, in the case of the aides Gaffney went after, both of these aides probably went through a VERY rigorous background check by the FBI and Secret Service. We're talking one that is thorough - one that goes pretty far back. Folks they knew in college probably got interviewed (and you can bet things were double-checked in those interviews).

Gaffney has added 2 and 2, and come up with 11.

[cyncooper]

Don't know what your beef is

Your pronouncement about the comprehension levels of posters.

[ImpBill]

Your right. I'm wrong.

Camelot is secure.

[justshe]

Where Muslims bear arms against innocent unarmed people, I want them swatted down and swatted down hard. That's the extent of it. I would feel the same if anyone of any religion were doing it.

We agree 100% on this point.

Re: your friends. We must have a different definition of friends vs. acquaintances. I have many acquaintances, but I only "trust" my friends. It doesn't sound like you have "trust" that at some point your 3 Muslim friends won't do you harm.

And regards your view that you can separate the person from their religion (the person practicing the religion is OK and you wish no harm to them...the religion is bad), I disagree--but NOT the way some may think.

I think perhaps you are attaching the 'religion' to those who have bastardized the religion for their own political gain. Terrorists are "practicing Muslims" ergo the religion of Muslim is evil and bad. MY view is that terrorists have compromised and bastardized the religion which does NOT equate to the religion of Muslim being evil and bad.

I suggest that you peruse this website re: Logical Answers to Non-Muslims
It seems to be one of the most straight forward websites attempting to answer questions. I know that many will say that it is all LIES by Muslims wishing to delude us. I disagree, from what I have read.

P.S. Justshe is not a he....but a she. :-)

[ImpBill]

It must be a comfort to many that you are on the job as "the defender of comprehension levels". I know I am impressed. Obviously not as impressed as you are with yourself, but it's a start. Keep up the good work.

[cyncooper]

P.S. Justshe is not a he....but a she

See, I had that all figured out.

Say, I am impressed with myself!

:)