Philosophical Problems with the Mormon Concept of God

Christian Research Institute ^ | Francis J. Beckwith

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

I continue to think it funny that you, one of the "elect" (as I've never met a Calvinist who wasn't "elect"), even bother to discuss this. I mean, it's a done deal, isn't it?

i have always been amused by those who are ignorant (in the sense of uninformed), attempting to explain bible doctrine to the adherents of that doctrine. You betray your ignorance, and should leave this topic to those better informed.

What difference does it make if ANYONE is a "false prophet" or "true prophet"? The die is cast, the game was over before it even started.

Even from LDS doctrine you should be able to answer that question, you make me laugh

Here it is in a nutshell: The only evidence of one's election is obedience. Certainly you should have known this, even in the midst of your deception, you should have been aware of this!

The degradation of your faculties begins, Realise that Satan breaks his tools when they are of no use to him, repent while you are still able.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

i wonder how the "Gentiles" in Utah at the time would see this "narrative".

[RnMomof7]

He and Eve did what they did for your benefit.

They sinned, and condemned all their offspring, i should be thankful for this?

They do not call it "the fall" it is "falling up" to them..and yes they believe you should be grateful...they made it possible for all the spirit children to have bodies and progress to be gods..

[Illbay]

Oh, but visualise if you are capable, the life that would even today be mine had Adam not sinned and disobeyed the God that they walked with.

What would it have been like? We would have been eternally damned, that's what it would have been like.

We would have been no better than Satan and his angels, because we would have been doomed to live forever without a physical body, in spirit form, our progression stopped, every aspect of our existence made null and void.

That's what it would have been like, you poor, ignorant sod.

[Illbay]

Wait, are you talking about CALVINISM--a creed that came about in the 16th Century--or do you mean what is in the SCRIPTURES?

Please be more clear.

[Illbay]

Realise that Satan breaks his tools when they are of no use to him, repent while you are still able.

Sounds like you are pretty close to broken.

BTW, what difference does it make if I repent or not? Either I'm "elect" (in which case I'd adhere to your Satanic doctrine) or I'm damned with nothing that I can do to influence it either way.

Is it just that you people have nothing to do between the time you find out you're "elect" and the day of your death? Surely you can take up some sort of hobby.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

Please, Do us a favor and OPEN YOUR BIBLE AND READ! It won't bite you if you do!
Paul was an apostle to the GENTILES. The letter to the Galatians was written from ROME.
He also referred to Abraham as "our father" in his letter to the ROMANS! Further more, The saved Gentile looks back to Abraham as his father BY ADOPTION before Abraham was circumcised.
The Jew looks to Abraham as his father by geneology.
The Galatians were a Gentile people who accepted Christ as saviour. Then came the JUDAHIZERS and subverted their beliefs, demanding circumcision and an obedience to the Law of Moses as they did in the book of ACTS:15.
Galatians:
Chapter 1, warns of false gospels given by ANGELS and MEN.Did not your "other gospel" come from a man who saw an angel?
Chapter 2, tells of Paul's defense of the freedom of the Gentile from the Law of Moses.
Ch 3, Paul shows how the Gentiles are children of Abraham BY FAITH and heirs according to the promise.
Ch 4 An allegory on the difference between LAW and GRACE.
Ch 5 If you accept a little of the law, you accept ALL of the LAW. The walk in the Spirit.
Ch 6 summing up.

There is an inward desire in man to show God man is worthy to be saved. Our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord. In Timothy 1:15 Paul pours out his heart "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me."
And get over this sillyness about "creeds." A hymn can be just as much a creed as much as a doctrinal statement. Does your church have a "doctrinal statement"? It is a CREED!

[Illbay]

It IS the fall, but it was NECESSARY, that's the point that I'm making. The Fall was PART of the plan.

Oddly enough, in our view God was always in control but in yours He couldn't stop us from Falling.

How ironic!

[Illbay]

The letters that he wrote were almost uniformly to former Jews who were living in those places. In fact, the epistles were written more often to correct misconceptions on the part of the people in those places.

With whom did he have the biggest problem? With the former JEWS among those congregations. The former Gentiles weren't saddled with the baggage of tradition that their Jewish brethren were.

These letters were written to correct the misconceptions of former Jews.

I'm sorry if you've been lied to, and if you've swallowed those lies, but I'm glad to set you to rights once and for all.

[Illbay]

Our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord.

No, you are wrong. Our righteousness is a way of showing the Lord we are trying, which is what He commanded of us.

Our righteousness will NEVER be enought to save us; that's what the Lord's atoning sacrifice was for. But it is no more "filthy rags" to him than the efforts of a little child to walk and to talk, however clumsily, is not "stupidity and idiocy" to his parents. The parents are proud the child is beginning to show forth an effort, proud that he is on his way to progression.

That is how our Father in Heaven views us, with love and compassion and complete understanding.

The god you describe is a monster, and I want nothing to do with him. IF I'm going to swallow man-made lies, I'll instead swallow the man-made lies of, say, the Buddhists. At least there's peace involved.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Wait, are you talking about CALVINISM--a creed that came about in the 16th Century--or do you mean what is in the SCRIPTURES?

Calvinism is a name, nothing more...Luther was actually more of a "Calvinist" than was Calvin, Re: The Bondage of the Will. That name describes the doctrine revealed by GOD to His people, much the same way that "Mormon" today describes the "Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints".

From what i have seen of your logical processes, i seriously doubt that you can comprehend Calvinism, and your attempts are really amusing.

[restornu]

FORK TONGUE STEVE

Oh! Steve it is said,You are the
slimiest snake in these bushes.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

What would it have been like? We would have been eternally damned, that's what it would have been like.

And you have the audasity to criticise Calvinism?? My what a strict "god" you have, he condemns without any sin!

We would have been no better than Satan and his angels, because we would have been doomed to live forever without a physical body, in spirit form, our progression stopped, every aspect of our existence made null and void.

Satan and his Angels rebelled against the TRUE, ONLY, and ETERNAL God, that was their Sin.

This is getting beyond amusing into pity. i pity you who cannot read the Revelation of God unto Man, the Bible, especially Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 2:21

Read the bible and repent of your error.

[Elsie]

I get "pinged" into these threads so that you all can insult yet another "Mormon," not so I can read the garbage "article" that is just a pretext to attack my faith yet again.

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Can't you just say "NO!" when we TarBabies want you to come out and play?

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Surely you can't think that any lurkers in these threads will want to come and follow Joseph after the way his followers treat those who disagree with them.

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because we "Mormons" don't bother attacking your pitiful "creeds" with articles of our own.

Golly.. I wonder why???

Could it be that there is NOTHING in our Scriptures or yours that you can find to do it?

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

Our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord.

**No, you are wrong. Our righteousness is a way of showing the Lord we are trying, which is what He
commanded of us.**

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy(menestrual) rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6
This "monster" as you call him sent his only begotten son to die in your place for the sins you have committed.

When people asked Jesus to heal and save them he did demanding nothing beforehand. When people asked for something to DO to be saved he gave them impossible tasks.
"For I say unto you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees ye shall in no case inter into the kingdom of heaven." matt 5:20
Good Master what shall I DO to inherit eternal life?..."sell all that thou hast and distribute it unto the poor and thou shalt have treasure ib heaven...Luke 18:18-23
And behold, one came and said unto him "Good Master, what GOOD THING shall I do that I may have eternal life? Matt 19: 16-22.

So, Illybay, have YOU sold all you have and given it to the poor?

[restornu]

I can see by your rebuttal you have not a clue of what you are saying- Sad!

[restornu]

Stick to what you know, Nothing!

[Illbay]

Calvinism was simply a new, wrong way to look at our relationship with God, that replaced an old, wrong way.

In later years you had other movements, like New Age, an even NEWER, wrong way to look at our relationship with God.

Fortunately, in the Spring of 1805, the world was changed forever when the old, TRUE way was restored to the earth.

[Illbay]

My what a strict "god" you have, he condemns without any sin!

Had nothing to do with sin. It has to do with the meaning of "damnation."

Damnation means being cut off from God forever, having an end to eternal progression. When you achieve this state without even having a physical body, it is the lowest of the low.

Oh, and my "cruel God" made sure it never happened, BTW. He selected the noblest man and woman from among His Spirit children, to be our first parents, knowing (He IS God, after all) that they would make the right choice.

My point was that the Fall is ESSENTIAL to the Plan of Salvation, whereas to YOU it was an aberration, a mistake, somewhere where God was unfortunately not in charge.

It wasn't. He NEVER leaves us with no options. He ALWAYS makes sure that each and every one of His children are given a chance, and a choice.

So your observation about His "cruelty" is irrelevant, because He was in charge from the beginning.

Your way, He was only in charge to the extent that He has damned each and every one of us, and arbitrarily, capriciously chooses a few that He will "save" because I guess he wants at least a few pets in the menagerie.

"Cosmic pets." How quaint. What a reprehensible "god" you have there.

[Illbay]

Could it be that there is NOTHING in our Scriptures or yours that you can find to do it?

Could it be that you are irrelevant, and not worth the waste of time?