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To: IronJack
At the risk of refighting the War, could you provide some citations to back up your assertion?

To begin with I would suggest any of the four Declarations of the Causes of Secession issued by southern states prior to Sumter. These should not be confused with the ordnances of secession issued by all the southern states, which was the quasi-official statement of secession, but were the southern equivilent of the Declaration of Independence. In each of these slavery is frequently mentioned, above and beyond anything else. Then there are the speeches and writings of the men who participated in secession conventions. Here are some of their quotes:

As the last and crowning act of insult and outrage upon the people of the South, the citizens of the Northern States, by overwhelming majorities, on the 6th day of November last, elected Abraham Lincoln and Hannibal Hamlin, President and Vice President of the United States. Whilst it may be admitted that the mere election of any man to the Presidency, is not, per se, a sufficient cause for a dissolution of the Union; yet, when the issues upon, and circumstances under which he was elected, are properly appreciated and understood, the question arises whether a due regard to the interest, honor, and safety of their citizens, in view of this and all the other antecedent wrongs and outrages, do not render it the imperative duty of the Southern States to resume the powers they have delegated to the Federal Government, and interpose their sovereignty for the protection of their citizens.

What, then are the circumstances under which, and the issues upon which he was elected? His own declarations, and the current history of the times, but too plainly indicate he was elected by a Northern sectional vote, against the most solemn warnings and protestations of the whole South. He stands forth as the representative of the fanaticism of the North, which, for the last quarter of a century, has been making war upon the South, her property, her civilization, her institutions, and her interests; as the representative of that party which overrides all Constitutional barriers, ignores the obligations of official oaths, and acknowledges allegiance to a higher law than the Constitution, striking down the sovereignty and equality of the States, and resting its claims to popular favor upon the one dogma, the Equality of the Races, white and black."
-- Letter of S.F. Hale, Commissioner of Alabama to the State of Kentucky, to Gov. Magoffin of Kentucky

SIR: In obedience to your instructions I repaired to the seat of government of the State of Louisiana to confer with the Governor of that State and with the legislative department on the grave and important state of our political relations with the Federal Government, and the duty of the slave-holding States in the matter of their rights and honor, so menacingly involved in matters connected with the institution of African slavery. --Report from John Winston, Alabama's Secession Commissioner to Louisiana

This was the ground taken, gentlemen, not only by Mississippi, but by other slaveholding States, in view of the then threatened purpose, of a party founded upon the idea of unrelenting and eternal hostility to the institution of slavery, to take possession of the power of the Government and use it to our destruction. It cannot, therefore, be pretended that the Northern people did not have ample warning of the disastrous and fatal consequences that would follow the success of that party in the election, and impartial history will emblazon it to future generations, that it was their folly, their recklessness and their ambition, not ours, which shattered into pieces this great confederated Government, and destroyed this great temple of constitutional liberty which their ancestors and ours erected, in the hope that their descendants might together worship beneath its roof as long as time should last. -- Speech of Fulton Anderson to the Virginia Convention

What was the reason that induced Georgia to take the step of secession? This reason may be summed up in one single proposition. It was a conviction, a deep conviction on the part of Georgia, that a separation from the North-was the only thing that could prevent the abolition of her slavery. -- Speech of Henry Benning to the Virginia Convention

Gentlemen, I see before me men who have observed all the records of human life, and many, perhaps, who have been chief actors in many of its gravest scenes, and I ask such men if in all their lore of human society they can offer an example like this? South Carolina has 300,000 whites, and 400,000 slaves. These 300,000 whites depend for their whole system of civilization on these 400,000 slaves. Twenty millions of people, with one of the strongest Governments on the face of the earth, decree the extermination of these 400,000 slaves, and then ask, is honor, is interest, is liberty, is right, is justice, is life, worth the struggle?

Gentlemen, I have thus very rapidly endeavored to group before you the causes which have produced the action of the people of South Carolina.
-- Speech of John Preston to the Virginia Convention

This new union with Lincoln Black Republicans and free negroes, without slavery, or, slavery under our old constitutional bond of union, without Lincoln Black Republicans, or free negroes either, to molest us.

If we take the former, then submission to negro equality is our fate. if the latter, then secession is inevitable ---
-- Address of William L. Harris of Mississippi

But I trust I may not be intrusive if I refer for a moment to the circumstances which prompted South Carolina in the act of her own immediate secession, in which some have charged a want of courtesy and respect for her Southern sister States. She had not been disturbed by discord or conflict in the recent canvass for president or vice-president of the United States. She had waited for the result in the calm apprehension that the Black Republican party would succeed. She had, within a year, invited her sister Southern States to a conference with her on our mutual impending danger. Her legislature was called in extra session to cast her vote for president and vice-president, through electors, of the United States and before they adjourned the telegraphic wires conveyed the intelligence that Lincoln was elected by a sectional vote, whose platform was that of the Black Republican party and whose policy was to be the abolition of slavery upon this continent and the elevation of our own slaves to equality with ourselves and our children, and coupled with all this was the act that, from our friends in our sister Southern States, we were urged in the most earnest terms to secede at once, and prepared as we were, with not a dissenting voice in the State, South Carolina struck the blow and we are now satisfied that none have struck too soon, for when we are now threatened with the sword and the bayonet by a Democratic administration for the exercise of this high and inalienable right, what might we meet under the dominion of such a party and such a president as Lincoln and his minions. -- Speech of John McQueen, the Secession Commissioner from South Carolina to Texas

History affords no example of a people who changed their government for more just or substantial reasons. Louisiana looks to the formation of a Southern confederacy to preserve the blessings of African slavery, and of the free institutions of the founders of the Federal Union, bequeathed to their posterity. -- Address of George Williamson, Commissioner from Louisiana to the Texas Secession Convention

39 posted on 12/22/2002 9:00:01 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
Thank you for your informed reply. I am researching ...
41 posted on 12/22/2002 9:02:38 AM PST by IronJack
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To: Non-Sequitur
I have to say that you've proven your point about Southern leadership. My chronology was somewhat misplaced; the seizures of federal military facilities took place much closer to the outbreak of hostilities than I had recollected, so the ideological basis probably had developed at around the same time. All of which lends credence to your viewpoint.

However, the issue of states' rights predates that of slavery by several decades. As early as the Whiskey Rebellion in Pennsylvania, the Alien and Sedition Acts of the late 18th century, and Tariff of Abominations in the 1820's, the collision between Federalists and Anti-federalists pointed out an ideological schism that would finally sunder the nation. That it was made manifest in the issue of slavery doesn't mean that that issue DEFINED it. The immediate cause of the War was secession, prompted by abolition, rooted in the notion of Federalism. Attempts to wed the competing notions of federalism and state sovereignty had failed, and the course of war was cast.

Thank you for an enlightening discussion, and for giving me cause to dust off some forlorn but beloved reference materials.

58 posted on 12/22/2002 9:39:00 AM PST by IronJack
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To: Non-Sequitur
Thanks for the posts, Non-Sequitur, but I'm afraid most of your quotes in the post above cite multiple or other reasons for the dissolution of the Union, than your favored liberal theory that the South did everything, and everything the South did, was always about Negro captivity, or slavery, or hanging Negroes, or hanging Negroes and setting them on fire.

You're just waving the bloody shirt as usual, and you've got some Clinton appointees waving it for you at the Park Service.

A situation which needs remediation, even as it is my opportunity to perform a public service by remediating your posts here.

Folks, read his post very carefully. You'll see that his quotes support his contention only sporadically -- and these are Confederate orators he is quoting.

81 posted on 12/22/2002 12:34:52 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
These should not be confused with the ordnances of secession issued by all the southern states, which was the quasi-official statement of secession, but were the southern equivilent of the Declaration of Independence.

Bullsh*t. The ordinances were the official acts of secession. Those declarations were legislative resolutions of zero statutory weight adopted after the fact as a statement of the legislative bodies adopting them. To suggest that those documents of no legal authority had the significance of the Declaration of Independence is to perpetrate a willfully dishonest fraud. Not that you are above such behavior...

96 posted on 12/22/2002 2:42:40 PM PST by GOPcapitalist
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To: Non-Sequitur
This is the most fascinationg data I've ever seen about the south and the election of 1860 (which started it all).

1860 Presidential Election Data

State L B B D Elec Vote Total Votes Lincoln Breckinridge Bell Douglas Smith Write-in
          R SD CU D Cast Republican Southern Democrat Constitutional Union Democrat  Union  
Alabama   1 2 3   9     90,122 0 0.00% 48,669 54.00% 27,835 30.89% 13,618 15.11% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Arkansas   1 2 3   4     54,152 0 0.00% 28,732 53.06% 20,063 37.05% 5,357 9.89% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
California 1 3 4 2 4       119,827 38,733 32.32% 33,969 28.35% 9,111 7.60% 37,999 31.71% 0 0.00% 15 0.01%
Connecticut 1 3 4 2 6       74,819 43,488 58.12% 14,372 19.21% 1,528 2.04% 15,431 20.62% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Delaware 3 1 2 4   3     16,115 3,822 23.72% 7,339 45.54% 3,888 24.13% 1,066 6.61% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Florida   1 2 3   3     13,301 0 0.00% 8,277 62.23% 4,801 36.10% 223 1.68% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Georgia   1 2 3   10     106,717 0 0.00% 52,176 48.89% 42,960 40.26% 11,581 10.85% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Illinois 1 4 3 2 11       339,666 172,171 50.69% 2,331 0.69% 4,914 1.45% 160,215 47.17% 35 0.01% 0 0.00%
Indiana 1 3 4 2 13       272,143 139,033 51.09% 12,295 4.52% 5,306 1.95% 115,509 42.44% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Iowa 1 4 3 2 4       128,739 70,302 54.61% 1,035 0.80% 1,763 1.37% 55,639 43.22% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Kentucky 4 2 1 3     12   146,216 1,364 0.93% 53,143 36.35% 66,058 45.18% 25,651 17.54% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Louisiana   1 2 3   6     50,510 0 0.00% 22,681 44.90% 20,204 40.00% 7,625 15.10% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Maine 1 3 4 2 8       100,918 62,811 62.24% 6,368 6.31% 2,046 2.03% 29,693 29.42% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Maryland 4 1 2 3   8     92,502 2,294 2.48% 42,482 45.93% 41,760 45.14% 5,966 6.45% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Massachusetts 1 4 3 2 13       169,876 106,684 62.80% 6,163 3.63% 22,331 13.15% 34,370 20.23% 0 0.00% 328 0.19%
Michigan 1 3 4 2 6       154,758 88,481 57.17% 805 0.52% 415 0.27% 65,057 42.04% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Minnesota 1 3 4 2 4       34,804 22,069 63.41% 748 2.15% 50 0.14% 11,920 34.25% 0 0.00% 17 0.05%
Mississippi   1 2 3   7     69,095 0 0.00% 40,768 59.00% 25,045 36.25% 3,282 4.75% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Missouri 4 3 2 1       9 165,563 17,028 10.28% 31,362 18.94% 58,372 35.26% 58,801 35.52% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
New Hampshire 1 3 4 2 5       65,943 37,519 56.90% 2,125 3.22% 412 0.62% 25,887 39.26% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
New Jersey 2     1 4     3 121,215 58,346 48.13% 0 0.00% 0 0.00% 62,869 51.87% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
New York 1     2 35       675,156 362,646 53.71% 0 0.00% 0 0.00% 312,510 46.29% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
North Carolina   1 2 3   10     96,712 0 0.00% 48,846 50.51% 45,129 46.66% 2,737 2.83% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Ohio 1 4 3 2 23       442,866 231,709 52.32% 11,406 2.58% 12,194 2.75% 187,421 42.32% 136 0.03% 0 0.00%
Oregon 1 2 4 3 3       14,758 5,329 36.11% 5,075 34.39% 218 1.48% 4,136 28.03% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Pennsylvania 1 2 4 3 27       476,442 268,030 56.26% 178,871 37.54% 12,776 2.68% 16,765 3.52% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Rhode Island 1     2 4       19,951 12,244 61.37% 0 0.00% 0 0.00% 7,707 38.63% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
South Carolina   1       8     N/A                        
Tennessee   2 1 3     12   146,106 0 0.00% 65,097 44.55% 69,728 47.72% 11,281 7.72% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Texas   1 2 3   4     62,855 0 0.00% 47,454 75.50% 15,383 24.47% 18 0.03% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Vermont 1 4 3 2 5       44,644 33,808 75.73% 218 0.49% 1,969 4.41% 8,649 19.37% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Virginia 4 2 1 3     15   166,891 1,887 1.13% 74,325 44.54% 74,481 44.63% 16,198 9.71% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Wisconsin 1 3 4 2 5       152,179 86,110 56.58% 887 0.58% 161 0.11% 65,021 42.73% 0 0.00% 0 0.00%
Total 1 3 4 2  180  72  39  12  4,685,561  1,865,908  39.82%  848,019  18.10%  590,901  12.61%  1,380,202  29.46%  171  0.00%  360  0.01%

Last Updated on 11/17/99
By Dave Leip

Look at the electoral vote. Of course Lincoln got no southern electoral votes. We knew that.

Look at the POPULAR vote. Excepting Virginia (and those 1,887 votes could be from the counties of Virginia that eventually went to West Virginia) Lincoln received NOT ONE popular vote for President!!! And you think the Democrats feel that Bush stole the 2000 election from Gore because Gore got more popular votes than Bush. How would you feel if you were in the South in 1860 and a President was elected that NOT A SINGLE southern voter voted for!! Not one. I would not be pleased. I might even try to secede!

273 posted on 12/25/2002 8:11:37 PM PST by FreedomCalls
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