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To: Non-Sequitur
I have to say that you've proven your point about Southern leadership. My chronology was somewhat misplaced; the seizures of federal military facilities took place much closer to the outbreak of hostilities than I had recollected, so the ideological basis probably had developed at around the same time. All of which lends credence to your viewpoint.

However, the issue of states' rights predates that of slavery by several decades. As early as the Whiskey Rebellion in Pennsylvania, the Alien and Sedition Acts of the late 18th century, and Tariff of Abominations in the 1820's, the collision between Federalists and Anti-federalists pointed out an ideological schism that would finally sunder the nation. That it was made manifest in the issue of slavery doesn't mean that that issue DEFINED it. The immediate cause of the War was secession, prompted by abolition, rooted in the notion of Federalism. Attempts to wed the competing notions of federalism and state sovereignty had failed, and the course of war was cast.

Thank you for an enlightening discussion, and for giving me cause to dust off some forlorn but beloved reference materials.

58 posted on 12/22/2002 9:39:00 AM PST by IronJack
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To: IronJack
The immediate cause of the War was secession, prompted by abolition, rooted in the notion of Federalism. Attempts to wed the competing notions of federalism and state sovereignty had failed, and the course of war was cast.

The most immediate cause of secession was the election of Abraham Lincoln on a platform that Southerners expected to be an engine for ruining the South economically, and permanently changing the relationship of the federal government to the States, in order to cement and entrench Lincoln's factional victory.

Southerners feared that Lincoln, in possession of the federal government, would use the Supremacy Clause to abrogate the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, and the rights of the States. Which is about what has happened.

If you look at Non-Sequitur's long post of quotations from Southern secession speeches to you, you will see those concerns reflected there, as much as, or even more than, any solicitude for slavery per se, or even its economic ramifications.

Remember that Marxists are determinists, and economic determinists in particular. That is one reason that pushing the line that "it was about slavery and nothing else" comes so easily to them. It is convenient to their political purpose of building a Marxist superstate, and consonant with their own indoctrination by senior Marxists.

82 posted on 12/22/2002 12:50:26 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: IronJack
One could say that wars between Britain and France, France and Germany, Germany and Russia or the US and Japan were inevitable, given the interests of those countries and the way nations behave, but the actual reasons for specific wars are what really matters. There was certainly a disagreement about the relations between the federal and the state governments lying at the roots of the Civil War. Perhaps war might have been fought around another issue relating to federal-state relations. Or perhaps, without an issue as divisive as slavery, there would have been no war. But for making this particular war at this particular time, slavery was essential.
148 posted on 12/22/2002 6:56:05 PM PST by x
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