Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins
My how wicked you have become since becoming a Calvinist.
The Jews them murmured at him, because he said I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Vs 44 has to do with that murmuring, not the leaving that occurs later (which is what we were discussing in light of 'Doc' driving Christians away)
The Jews strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Many therefore of his disciples, when they heard this, said, this is an hard saying; who can hear it? (vs.60)
Christ explained his words (vs 63) showing that He was not talking about the literal eating of His flesh and blood, thus, it was His will and the Fathers that all who saw Him and believe on him would be saved. (vs.40)
Thus, everyone there who saw the miracle could have believed.
What offended them was the same thing that offends you...you can not save yourself. Read the text ... It is Calvinism that has the odd view that spiritual 'corpses' can be drawn before they are regenerated! No Dec..it is Arminians that believe the dead can raise themselves...Calvinists believe you must be Born again (quickened) before you can desire God...
And how is a spiritually dead man 'drawn' before he is regenerated?
That is what you are claiming is happening in vs.44!
Remember you are the one with the stop light theololgy
That is correct, the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to the individual and the individual has the free will to say 'yes' or 'no' to salvation, in other words, believe or not believe.
No man is ever saved before he believes, he is saved because you believe
Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Rom.3:28)
For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, lest any man should boast. (Eph.2:8)
There is not a passage in scripture that states someone is saved before they believe but what does scripture have to do with your God dishonoring system?
2 Tim. 2:16
BTW that is why they huing him you know? He was ALWAYS teaching them there was no salvation in law keeping..
Sorry you think I am now "wicked" but dec you need to rightly divide the word of God..and you are not doing that here
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Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
It was the Father's will that 'everyone who seeth the son and believe' would be save.
That means that everyone who saw the miracles could have believed since they were all being drawn by the Father, they resisted the drawing (Heb.10:39) by not believing
ftD: "It was the Father's will that everyone who saw what Christ did that day be saved And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life; I will raise him up at the last day" Yes. Pay close attention to those words, "...and believeth on him.." Notice:
That is right, and unlike the unbiblical view of the Calvinists, we believe that one chooses to believe or not based on his own volition.
"But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe [that I am the bread of life]" [John 6:36]
That is correct, they saw and they chose to reject the miracles they saw.
ftD: "Moreover, when you quote John 6 do not forget John 12:32, If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to me" "All men" will not be saved. The sense of the verse is "all sorts of men", or "men from all nations, cultures and walks of life", or men of high and low estate", etc.
LOL!
Oh, yea, that is what it says does it?
But only the ones that are given to him by the Father will be saved. Reject that and reject Jesus' own words.
Again, it was the Fathers will that all who saw Christ and believed, thus, whoever saw Christ, could have believed, but they chose not to.
John did not have to put the words in 'every one which seeth the Son' if the unregenerate man could not be affected by whay he saw and believe.
Christ says the same thing of the cities that would have repented if they saw His miracles (Matt.11), now how does 'seeing' anything affect a 'spiritually dead corpse'?
ftD: "I never heard of a Christian having a ministry to drive people away from Christ!" Christ himself had that ministry.
Christ did not have a ministry to drive people away, they chose to reject Him (Matt.23:37), not he they.
Does the truth drive people away, yes it does, but the purpose isn't to drive people away, but to convince people of the errors.
Do you think he was trying to "draw people to him" when he said: "But you do not have his word abiding in you, because whom he sent, him [Jesus] you do not believe."
They resisted his miracles and preferred to believe in their own systems of thought (Mk.7:7) just as you and the rest of your cabel does.
So. Do you believe him, ftD? Only the ones that Jesus plainly tells you [above] that are given to him by the Father will be saved. Reject that and reject Jesus' own words.
The words I see of Christ are found in Jn.3:16, that He died for all the world and whosoever believeth will be saved.
I see also 1Tim.2:4, 4:10, Heb.2:9, Ezek.33:11, 1Jn.2:2, 2Pet.3:9, etc
I also see the commandment in Jude,
And of some have compassion, making a difference, and other save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh (Jude 22-23)
ftD: "Besides if they are spiritually dead, why do they need to be driven away, they are not even being drawn!" The spiritually dead don't need to be driven away, they will go of their own accord when they are confronted with the Truth. The Truth repels those whom the Father hasn't given to Jesus. [John 6: 65-66]
Well, Doc says his ministry is to drive people away!
So, why do you need a ministry to drive people away who cannot believe in the first place ( like Satan blinding them even though they can't see in the first place 2Cor.4:4).
How does God draw anyone before regeneration, do you come to life in stages?
Ye are all forgers of lies!
Is your anger from God?
Premillenialism does not ignore anything. - As to John 5:28, the premil correctly interprets the verse which reaffirms that the hour (a point in time, obviously) is indeed coming for both of those prophecied events. - To read it as though it mandates that they both occur simultaneously is a massive revulsion of the consistant style of God's word as to it's relationship to the concept of time.
Time is the dimension that brought about our present material continuum. When time is revoked, it will all revert to it's true nature in a powerful display of what we know as heat, or energy. Time is only for fleshly man, not for spiritual man.
Some people cannot grasp these concepts; I don't know why, but such people do exist. I do not attempt to put down those who can't deal with it, as I'm sure that there are other concepts that I don't grasp.
The 'thousand years is as one day' idea that Peter stated is an attempt to explain how a single event for God can take a literal 1000 years to play out in the material realm. Please don't try to use it to obfuscate the revelations in his word.
All Prophecy will be fulfilled.
Is there something with your reading ability?
I know your thinking is shot, but I did not know it effected your reading as well.
They did not leave Jesus because He was preaching an anti-law message, they left because they took what He said about eating his flesh and drinking his blood literally (vs.52,55-60)
That is why he explained that He was not talking about His literal flesh and blood but faith which is the spiritual 'eating and drinking' of His body and blood.
Sorry you think I am now "wicked" but dec you need to rightly divide the word of God..and you are not doing that here
You have again changed the subject, no where in those passages is Christ trying to drive anyone away.
That they chose to leave was their decision to reject the truth for the lie, just as you have chosen to do with Calvinism (Mk.7:7)
. Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
And so? Where do you read in any of those passages that Christ wanted them to depart?
He accepted the reality of their decisions, just like He knew that the Apostles would leave Him also when His trials began. (Jn.16:32)
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
So?
The question was not what happened, but why it happened.
Did Christ want them to leave (as Doc maintains is his ministry) or did they leave despite what God wanted.
There is not one verse you listed that states that Christ said what He said to drive people away, only that they were driven away.
I know very well what Doc's ministry is,
For of this sort are they which creep into houses and lead captive silly women...
Amen! Rev. 20 clarifies the order of the Resurrections.
All Prophecy will be fulfilled.
Amen!
One can be angry without sinning (Matt.5:22 cf Mark 3:5)
He doesn't.
"But the natural man does not receive the things from the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned."
"Now _WE_ have received not the Spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God THAT WE MIGHT KNOW the things that have been freely given to _US_ by God."
[1 Cor. 2: 10-16]
One of the places you can find the answer to "why" is in 1 Cor. 2:10-16 (see #2353)
Calvinism, by taking away the rituals of Romanism, had to replace it with something else the people could find confidence in.
Instead of the Bible, Calvin went to Augustine's philosophy and stated that you do not need rituals, you are one of the 'elect' (if you persevere).
Calvinism does not believe you need the Cross to be saved, but are saved without the Cross before you believe.
That you happen to believe afterward is a secondary issue.
Thus, election not faith in Christ is the central tenet of Calvinism and serves as a substitute for the Romanist rituals.
As a Calvinist you cannot say you were saved by faith in Christ, you were regenerated before you believed anything, thus, you were saved by election not faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sorry to disappoint you, but that is not referring to the Gospel, but to doctrinal matters.
Paul is speaking to believers about growth ('milk' vs 'meat'), not the Gospel.
The Gospel is understood by unregenerate man because 'faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God' (Rom.10:17)
Please spare me anymore Calvinistic proof texts, I have seen them all over and over again.
No, dr. why don't you try again!
Are you regenerated before you believe or not?
If you are, then it is not faith in the Cross that saves you but Election that does.
If you do not believe this, then that is one thing, but all the Calvinists on these posts believe you are regenerated before you believe, which makes election the source of your salvation and not faith, which comes after you are born again
More to the point, this is a thread on eschatology. However, it is an old and tired thread. Maybe a rousing calvarm fight will put it out of its misery.
He doesn't!
Then why are you always citing Jn.6:44 as a Calvinistic proof-text! LOL!
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