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Is Satan Bound Today?
BibleBB ^ | Mike Vlach

Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins

An Analysis of the Amillennial Interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3.

1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time (Revelation 20:1-3).

One distinctive of amillennial theology is the belief that Satan is bound during this present age. This belief stems from an interpretation that sees the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 as being fulfilled today. The purpose of this work is examine the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 and address the question, "Is Satan bound today?" In doing this, our evaluation will include the following: 1) a brief definition of amillennialism; 2) a look at the amillennial approach to interpreting Revelation; 3) an explanation and analysis of the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3; and 4) some concluding thoughts.

DEFINITION OF AMILLENNIALISM

Amillennialism is the view that there will be no future reign of Christ on the earth for a thousand years.1 Instead, the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned six times in Revelation 20 is being fulfilled during the present age. According to amillennialists, the "thousand years" is not a literal thousand years but is figurative for "a very long period of indeterminate length." 2 Thus the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 describes the conditions of the present age between the two comings of Christ. During this period Satan is bound (Rev. 20:1-3) and Christ's Kingdom is being fulfilled (Rev. 20:4-6).3

THE AMILLENNIAL APPROACH TO INTERPRETING REVELATION

Before looking specifically at how amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:1-3, it is important to understand how they approach the Book of Revelation. Amillennialists base their interpretation of the Book of Revelation on a system of interpretation known as progressive parallelism. This interpretive system does not view the events of Revelation from a chronological or sequential perspective but, instead, sees the book as describing the church age from several parallel perspectives that run concurrently. 4 Anthony Hoekema, an amillennialist, describes progressive parallelism in the following manner:

According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of his second.5

Following the work of William Hendriksen,6 Hoekema believes there are seven sections of Revelation that describe the present age. These seven sections give a portrait of conditions on heaven and earth during this period between the two comings of Christ. These seven sections which run parallel to each other are chapters 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-14, 15-16, 17-19 and 20-22. What is significant for our purposes is that amillennialists see Revelation 20:1 as taking the reader back to the beginning of the present age. As Hoekema states, "Revelation 20:1 takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era."7

Amillennialists, thus, do not see a chronological connection between the events of Revelation 19:11-21 that describe the second coming of Christ, and the millennial reign discussed in Revelation 20:1-6. As Hendriksen says, "Rev. 19:19ff. carried us to the very end of history, to the day of final judgment. With Rev. 20 we return to the beginning of our present dispensation."8 The amillennial view sees chapter nineteen as taking the reader up to the second coming, but the beginning of chapter twenty takes him back once again to the beginning of the present age. In other words, the events of Revelation 20:1-6 do not follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

THE AMILLENNIAL VIEW OF REVELATION 20:1-3

With the principle of progressive parallelism as his base, the amillennialist holds that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 took place at Christ's first coming.9 This binding ushered in the millennial kingdom. As William Cox says,

Having bound Satan, our Lord ushered in the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20. This millennium commenced at the first advent and will end at the second coming, being replaced by the eternal state.10

Thus the present age is the millennium and one characteristic of this millennial period is that Satan is now bound. This binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3, according to the amillennialist, finds support in the Gospels, particularly Jesus' binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:29. As Hoekema states,

Is there any indication in the New Testament that Satan was bound at the time of the first coming of Christ? Indeed there is. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan, Jesus replied, "How can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?" (Mt. 12:29). 11

Hoekema also points out that the word used by Matthew (delta epsilon omega) to describe the binding of the strong man is the same word used in Revelation 20 to describe the binding of Satan.12 In addition to Matthew 12:29, amillennialists believe they have confirming exegetical support from Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32. In Luke 10, when the seventy disciples returned from their mission they said to Jesus, "'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'" And He said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning'" (Luke 10:17-18). According to Hoekema, "Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow-that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place."13

John 12:31-32, another supporting text used by amillennialists states: "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Hoekema points out that the verb translated "cast out" (epsilon kappa beta alpha lambda lambda omega) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3 when it says an angel "threw [ballo] him into the abyss." 14

What is the significance of this binding of Satan according the amillennial position? This binding has special reference to Satan's ability to deceive the nations during the present age. Because Satan is now bound, he is no longer able to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ. Before Christ's first coming, all the nations of the world, except Israel, were under the deception of Satan. Except for the occasional person, family or city that came into contact with God's people or His special revelation, Gentiles, as a whole, were shut out from salvation.15 With the coming of Christ, however, Jesus bound Satan, and in so doing, removed his ability to deceive the nations. This binding, though, did not mean a total removal of Satan's activity, for Satan is still active and able to do harm. As Cox says, "Satan now lives on probation until the second coming."16 But while he is bound, Satan is no longer able to prevent the spread of the Gospel nor is he able to destroy the Church. Also, according to amillennialists, the "abyss" to which Satan is assigned is not a place of final punishment but a figurative description of the way Satan's activities are being curbed during this age.17

Hoekema summarizes the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 by saying,

"We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the Gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church."18

AN ANALYSIS OF THE AMILLENNIAL INTERPRETATION OF REVELATION 20:1-3

Though amillennial scholars have clearly and logically laid out their case for the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3, there are serious hermeneutical, exegetical and theological difficulties with their interpretation of this text.

1) The approach to interpreting Revelation known as "progressive parallelism is highly suspect The first difficulty to be examined is hermeneutical and deals with the amillennial approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation. In order for the amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3 to be correct, the interpretive approach to Revelation known as "progressive parallelism" must also be accurate. Yet this approach which sees seven sections of Revelation running parallel to each other chronologically is largely unproven and appears arbitrary. As Hoekema admits, the approach of progressive parallelism, "is not without its difficulties."19

The claim that Revelation 20:1 "takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era,"20 does not seem warranted from the text. There certainly are no indicators within the text that the events of Revelation 20:1 take the reader back to the beginning of the present age. Nor are there textual indicators that the events of Revelation 20 should be separated chronologically from the events of Revelation 19:11-21. In fact, the opposite is the case. The events of Revelation 20 seem to follow naturally the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. If one did not have a theological presupposition that the millennium must be fulfilled in the present age, what indicators within the text would indicate that 20:1 takes the reader back to the beginning of the church era? A normal reading indicates that Christ appears from heaven (19:11-19), He destroys his enemies including the beast and the false prophet (19:20-21) and then He deals with Satan by binding him and casting him into the abyss (20:1-3). As Ladd says, "There is absolutely no hint of any recapitulation in chapter 20."21

That John uses the formula "and I saw" (kappa alpha iota  epsilon iota delta omicron nu) at the beginning of Revelation 20:1 also gives reason to believe that what he is describing is taking place in a chronological manner.22 Within Revelation 19-22, this expression is used eight times (19:11, 17, 19; 20:1, 4, 11, 12; 21:1). When John uses "and I saw," he seems to be describing events in that are happening in a chronological progression. Commenting on these eight uses of "and I saw" in this section, Thomas states,

The case favoring chronological sequence in the fulfillment of these scenes is very strong. Progression from Christ's return to the invitation to the birds of prey and from that invitation to the defeat of the beast is obvious. So is the progression from the binding of Satan to the Millennium and final defeat of Satan and from the final defeat to the new heaven and new earth with all this entails. The interpretation allowing for chronological arrangement of these eight scenes is one-sidedly strong. 23

A natural reading of the text indicates that the events of Revelation 20 follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21. It is also significant that Hoekema, himself, admits that a chronological reading of Revelation would naturally lead one to the conclusion that the millennium follows the second coming when he says, "If, then, one thinks of Revelation 20 as describing what follows chronologically after what is described in chapter 19, one would indeed conclude that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 will come after the return of Christ.24

Herman Hoyt, when commenting on this statement by Hoekema, rightly stated, "This appears to be a fatal admission."25 And it is. Hoekema admits that a normal reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would not lead one to the amillennial position. In a sense, the amillennialist is asking the reader to disregard the plain meaning of the text for an assumption that has no exegetical warrant. As Hoyt says,

To the average person the effort to move the millennium to a place before the Second Coming of Christ is demanding the human mind to accede to something that does not appear on the face of the text. But even more than that, the effort to make seven divisions cover the same period of time (between the first and second comings) will meet with all sorts of confusion to establish its validity. At best this is a shaky foundation upon which to establish a firm doctrine of the millennium. 26

The hermeneutical foundation of amillennialism is, indeed, a shaky one. The seriousness of this must not be underestimated. For if the amillennialist is wrong on his approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation, his attempt at placing Satan's binding during the present age has suffered a major if not fatal blow.

2) The amillennial view does not adequately do justice to the language of Revelation 20:1-3 According to the amillennial view, Satan is unable to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ, but he is still active and able to do harm in this age. His activities, then, have not ceased but are limited.27 This, however, does not do justice to what is described in Revelation 20:1-3. According to the text, Satan is "bound" with a "great chain" (vv.1-2) and thrown into the "abyss" that is "shut" and "sealed" for a thousand years (v. 3). This abyss acts as a "prison" (v. 7) until the thousand years are completed. The acts of binding, throwing, shutting and sealing indicate that Satan's activities are completely finished. As Mounce states:

The elaborate measures taken to insure his [Satan's] custody are most easily understood as implying the complete cessation of his influence on earth (rather than a curbing of his activities)."28

Berkouwer, who himself is an amillennialist, admits that the standard amillennial explanation of this text does not do justice to what is described:

Those who interpret the millennium as already realized in the history of the church try to locate this binding in history. Naturally, such an effort is forced to relativize the dimensions of this binding, for it is impossible to find evidence for a radical elimination of Satan's power in that "realized millennium." . . . The necessary relativizing of John's description of Satan's bondage (remember that Revelation 20 speaks of a shut and sealed pit) is then explained by the claim that, although Satan is said to deceive the nations no more (vs. 3), this does not exclude satanic activity in Christendom or individual persons. I think it is pertinent to ask whether this sort of interpretation really does justice to the radical proportions of the binding of Satan-that he will not be freed from imprisonment for a thousand years. 29

The binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is set forth in strong terms that tell of the complete cessation of his activities. The amillennial view that Satan's binding is just a restriction or a "probation," as Cox has stated,30 does not hold up under exegetical scrutiny.

3) The amillennial view conflicts with the New Testament's depiction of Satan's activities in the present age The view that Satan is bound during this age contradicts multiple New Testament passages which show that Satan is presently active and involved in deception. He is "the god of this world [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is our adversary who "prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). In the church age he was able to fill the heart of Ananias (Acts 5:3) and "thwart" the work of God's ministers (1 Thess. 2:18). He is one for whom we must protect ourselves from by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-19). Satan's influence in this age is so great that John declared "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19). These passages do not depict a being who has been bound and shut up in a pit. As Grudem has rightly commented, "the theme of Satan's continual activity on earth throughout the church age, makes it extremely difficult to think that Satan has been thrown into the bottomless pit."31

What then of the amillennial argument that Matthew 12:29 teaches that Jesus bound Satan at His first coming? The answer is that this verse does not teach that Satan was bound at that time. What Jesus stated in Matthew 12:29 is that in order for kingdom conditions to exist on the earth, Satan must first be bound. He did not say that Satan was bound yet. As Toussaint says:

By this statement He [Jesus] previews John the Apostle's discussion in Revelation 20. Jesus does not say He has bound Satan or is even in the process of doing so. He simply sets the principle before the Pharisees. His works testify to His ability to bind Satan, and therefore they attest His power to establish the kingdom.32

Jesus' casting out of demons (Matt. 12:22-29) was evidence that He was the Messiah of Israel who could bring in the kingdom. His mastery over demons showed that He had the authority to bind Satan. But as the multiple New Testament texts have already affirmed, this binding did not take place at Christ's first coming. It will, though, at His second. What Jesus presented as principle in Matthew 12:29 will come to fulfillment in Revelation 20:1-3.

Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32 certainly tell of Christ's victory over Satan but these passages do not teach that Satan is bound during this age. No Christian denies that the work of Christ, especially his death on the cross, brought a crushing defeat to Satan, but the final outworking of that defeat awaits the second coming. That is why Paul could tell the believers at Rome that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Romans 16:20).

For the one contemplating the validity of amillennialism the question must be asked, Does the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 accurately describe Satan's condition today? An analysis of multiple scriptural texts along with the present world situation strongly indicates that the answer is No.

4) Satan's deceiving activities continue throughout most of the Book of Revelation According to amillennialists, Satan was bound at the beginning of the Church age and he no longer has the ability to deceive the nations during the present age. But within the main sections of Revelation itself, Satan is pictured as having an ongoing deceptive influence on the nations. If Satan is bound during this age and Revelation describes conditions during this present age, we should expect to see a cessation of his deceptive activities throughout the book. But the opposite is the case. Satan's deception is very strong throughout Revelation. Revelation 12:9, for instance, states that "Satan. . . deceives the whole world." This verse presents Satan as a present deceiver of the world, not one who is bound.33

Satan's deception is also evident in the authority he gives to the first beast (Rev. 13:2) and the second beast who "deceives those who dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:14). Satan is certainly the energizer of political Babylon of whom it is said, "all the nations were deceived by your sorcery" (Revelation 18:23).

Satan's ability to deceive the nations throughout the Book of Revelation shows that he was not bound at the beginning of the present age. Grudem's note on the mentioned passages is well taken, "it seems more appropriate to say that Satan is now still deceiving the nations, but at the beginning of the millennium this deceptive influence will be removed."34

CONCLUSION

The amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 that Satan is bound during this age is not convincing and fails in several ways. Hermeneutically it fails in that its approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation is based on the flawed system of progressive parallelism. This system forces unnatural breaks in the text that a normal reading of Revelation does not allow. This is especially true with the awkward break between the millennial events of Revelation 20 and the account of the second coming in Revelation 19:11-21. Exegetically, the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 does not do justice to the language of the text. The binding described in this passage clearly depicts a complete cessation of Satan's activities-not just a limitation as amillennialists believe. Theologically, the view that Satan is bound today simply does not fit with the multiple New Testament texts that teach otherwise. Nor can the amillennial view be reconciled with the passages within Revelation itself that show Satan as carrying on deceptive activity. To answer the question posed in the title of this work, "Is Satan bound today?" The answer from the biblical evidence is clearly, No.


Footnotes

1. The prefix "a-" means "no." Amillennialism, therefore, means "no millennium."

2. Anthony Hoekema, "Amillennialism," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, Robert G. Clouse, ed. (Downers Grove: Inter Varsity, 1977), p. 161.

3. Among amillennial lists there are differences of opinion as to exactly what Christ's millennial reign specifically is. Augustine, Allis and Berkhof believed the millennial reign of Christ refers to the Church on earth. On the other hand, Warfield taught that Christ's kingdom involves deceased saints who are reigning with Christ from heaven.

4. This approach to Revelation can be traced to the African Donatist, Tyconius, a late fourth-century interpreter. Millennium based on a recapitulation method of interpretation. Using this principle Tyconius saw Revelation as containing several different visions that repeated basic themes throughout the book. Tyconius also interpreted the thousand years of Revelation 20:1-6 in nonliteral terms and understood the millennial period as referring to the present age. This recapitulation method was adopted by Augustine and has carried on through many Roman Catholic and Protestant interpreters. See Alan Johnson, "Reve lation,"Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), v. 12, pp. 578-79.

5. Hoekena, pp. 156-57.

6. William Hendriksen, More Than Conquerors (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1940).

7. Hoekema, p. 160.

8. Hendriksen, p. 221.

9. Hendriksen defines what the amillennialist means by "first coming." "When we say 'the first coming' we have reference to all the events associated with it, from the incarnation to the coronation. We may say, therefore, that the binding of satan [sic], according to all these passages, begins with that first coming" Hendriksen, p.226.

10. William E. Cos, Amillennialism Today (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966), p. 58.

11. Hoekema, p. 162.

12. Hoekema, pp. 162-63.

13. Hoekema, p. 163.

14. Hoekema, pp. 163-64.

15. Hoekema, p. 161.

16. Cox, p. 57.

17. Hoekema, p. 161.

18. Hoekema, p. 162.

19. Hoekema, p. 156.

20. Hoekema, p. 160.

21. George Eldon Ladd, "An Historical Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 190.

22. Harold W. Hoehner says, "Though these words are not as forceful a chronological order as 'after these things I saw' ( (meta tauta eidon; 4:1; 7:9; 15:5; 18:1) or 'after these things I heard' ( meta tauta ekousa, 19:1), they do show chronological progression." Harold W. Hoehner, "Evidence from Revelation 20," A case For Premillennialism: A New Consensus, Donald K. Campbell and Jeffrey L. Townsend, eds. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1992), pp. 247-48.

23. Robert. L. Thomas, Revelation 8-22: An Exegetical Commentary (Chicago: Moody, 1995), pp. 247-48.

24. Hoekema, p. 159.

25. Herman A. Hoyt, "A Dispensational Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 193.

26. Hoyt, p. 194.

27. As Cox says, "Satan's binding refers (in figurative language) to the limiting of his power." Cox, p. 59.

28. Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids: Eerchnans, 1977), p. 353. Grudem also adds, "More than a mere binding or restriction of activity is in view here. The imagery of throwing Satan into a pit and shutting it and sealing it over him gives a picture of total removal from influence on the earth." Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology

29. G.C.Berkouwer, The Return of Christ, Studies in Dogmatics (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1972), p. 305.

30. Cox, p. 57.

31. Grudem, p. 1118.

32. Stanley D. Toussaint, Behold the King: A Study of Matthew (Portland: Multnomah, 1981), p. 305.

33. The argument that the casting down of Satan in Revelation 12:9 is the same event as the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 breaks down for two reasons. First, in Revelation 12:9 Satan was thrown from heaven to the earth. But in Revelation 20:1-3 he is taken from the earth to the abyss. Second, in Revelation 12:9 Satan's activities, including his deception of the nations, continue, while in Revelation 20:1-3 his activities are completely stopped as he is shut up and sealed in the abyss.

34. Grudem, p. 1118.


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KEYWORDS: catholiclist; devil; evil; lucifer; satan; thedoc
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To: fortheDeclaration; Jerry_M; the_doc; CCWoody; drstevej; Matchett-PI
And what He do when it knew it offended them?
He explained that He was not about talking about literal food,(vs.58) but spiritual food (Jn.6:63)

Funny in my Bible vs 58 is BEFORE vs 63...what translation are you using? Jesus KNEW he had offened them..they, like many today, wanted to save themselves...He made NO attempt to temper His words..He expanded on them so well they walked away

What offended them was the same thing that offends you...you can not save yourself. Read the text ...

It is Calvinism that has the odd view that spiritual 'corpses' can be drawn before they are regenerated!

No Dec..it is Arminians that believe the dead can raise themselves...Calvinists believe you must be Born again (quickened) before you can desire God...

Remember you are the one with the stop light theololgy


2,221 posted on 12/13/2002 5:27:29 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Well, this thread is now totally useless. Might as well go post a calvarm thread.

I'll see if I can find one. Bet you're holding your breath!! LOL.
2,222 posted on 12/13/2002 5:30:26 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
silly question.

No a silly answer...from your previous post

Peter wrote that before John wrote Revelation. At that time of the writing, one might have maintained such a thing. After Jesus revealed the truth to John in the Book of Revelation that the reign would be a thousand years, then the issue was settled.

You advocate a literal reading of the text. Jesus at NO time changed or contradicted the words of Peter...except in your mind

Peters statement calls into question the meaning of that thousand years..a day or 1000,000 years

You attempt to dismiss this as "silly ", but the truth is Revelation is a highly SYMBOLIC book , there is NO reason to believe in this ONE Chapter ..all symbolism was caste aside

So I ask again did the Holy Spirit lie to Peter as he wrote his epistle?

2,223 posted on 12/13/2002 5:34:21 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
Are you fleeing a question?
2,224 posted on 12/13/2002 5:35:25 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
The silly part was the part about the Holy Spirit lying.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit lies? Of course not. So extend the courtesy, Rn. You know I don't believe that.

If you think I do believe that then this discussion is useless and we might as well call it quits.
2,225 posted on 12/13/2002 5:37:04 PM PST by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
If that's the same as ignoring pure ignorance and rudeness, then yes.
2,226 posted on 12/13/2002 5:38:24 PM PST by xzins
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To: Jean Chauvin; the_doc; RnMomof7; nobdysfool; jude24; gdebrae; Wrigley; CCWoody; Jerry_M; xzins; ...
You are shifting assertions about my Greek NT text cites. So let's go to the instant replay:

I wrote in my post #1997, very specifically "The Greek NT text has no punctuation. John did not write Greek with punctuation. ..." (John's writing), and followed that with 5 Greek NT passages for Rev 20:4 without punctuation, and a hyperlink to how Rev 20:4 may have looked penned by John, and stated anyone with unimpaired reading could see there is no punctuation in these Greek NT texts, specifically referring to "these" Greek NT passages 1 line above.

Jean Chauvin #2004: While the originals did not have puncuation, the earliest Greek manuscripts did contain some slight forms of puncuation: paragraph breaks, gaps between words and occasional periods. (The reason for this is that the Greek language did not have punctuation until the second or third century)

Jean Chauvin #2004: quotes Starwind post #1997: ”I'm sure anyone with unimpaired reading can see there is no punctuation in these Greek NT texts.” and further objects Your statement would be correct if it read, “I’m sure anyone with unimpaired reading can see there is no punctuation in the editions of the Greek NT texts I cited. [my underline].

Starwind #2082: Sincerely Jean, this is another reading error on your part. In my post #1997, my phrase "I'm sure anyone with unimpaired reading can see there is no punctuation in these Greek NT texts" immediately followed those actual Greek NT texts (5 of them) wherein I explicitly cited and showed the editions and text of Rev 20:4 without any punctuation. To which your mistaken objection was I failed to make clear the editions of the Greek NT texts I cited. The texts were cited and reproduced 1 line above what you quoted.

And now in #2091, you write No error, just a slight semantic change to ensure that the lurkers out there knew you meant the 5 Greek texts you quoted. The phrase "...in 'these' Greek texts..." to some people, especially in the light of your assertion that ~NO~ Greek text had any punctuation of any kind (you said, "The Greek NT text has no punctuation"), could possibly be constured as a reference to all Greek texts "in general". I'm not insinuating you selected your wording intentionally such that you intended to mislead some people. I just felt it needed to be clarified.

So now your position is you understood all along (but didn't say so)? You were just concerned that without a slight semantic change from "these" to "in the editions .. I cited", lurkers might (like you) overlook my very specific "The Greek NT text", list of 5 specific editions by name, with unpunctuated passages, included simile "penned by John", and referred again by "these Greek NT texts" (not 'any' or 'all', but "these")?

Except you didn't say in post #2004 you were clarifying for lurkers and in post #2091 you've distorted my substantiated assertion of no punctuation in The Greek NT text as written by John (with 6 specific examples) into "your assertion that ~NO~ Greek text had any punctuation of any kind" which you distort further by could possibly be constured as a reference to all Greek texts "in general".

Further, I suspect after lurkers read your agreement "While the originals did not have puncuation, the earliest Greek manuscripts did contain some slight forms of puncuation: paragraph breaks, gaps between words and occasional periods. (The reason for this is that the Greek language did not have punctuation until the second or third century), you'll need to clarify it for them again with yet another of your slight semantic changes.

Now as to the Greek text you consult:

My point about the "Greek text I cited" was to denote that I understand that there are differences in various Greek texts. When I originally made a comment about the punctuation. I simply noted that in the copy of the Greek text I had in front of my eyes, there were all commas (I just checked, there still are only commas.) I made this notation so as not to imply that ~ALL~ Greek texts contain punctuation or the same punctuation that the copy I have does. Apparently, you did not catch that. I'm not suprised.

You have me at a disadvantage. Nowhere on this thread do you ever identify which Greek text you're citing. You allude to it and assert it's content supports your position but not once did you ever post the actual Greek text (with or without punctuation), not once did you ever give a complete name and edition. You occasionally post an excerpted Greek word (from a concordance I suspect), but never the full passage. What you did post in #1958:

In the Greek text I consult, there are only commas. There is no period or colon.

The text reads word for word: “And I saw thrones, (comma) and they sat on them, (comma) and judgment was given to them, (comma) and the souls of the [ones] having been beheaded…”

is English not Greek, and the passage is incomplete. You recommended I look at the Nestle Ashland 26th/27th with punctuation but now deny it is what you were citing.

So while I spent some time extracting Rev 20:4 from the NA 26/27-punctuated and did a hypothetical English translation and diagram, thinking it was germane to our debate, you now claim that's not the text you cite either.

And now in #2091 you repost it for clarity?

For clarity, again I will post the English literal from the Greek text I consulted which pertains to your allegation of a distinction based on the punctuation marks of the KJV regarding the sight of those on thrones and the sight of souls: ” And I saw thrones, (comma) and they sat on them, (comma) and judgment was given to them, (comma) and the souls of the [ones] having been beheaded…”

This is the same incomplete unsubstantiated stuff you posted before. What clarity do you think you're lending? You've added nothing new. You've invested tens of thousands of keystrokes in this thread but nary a couple hundred for 1 example of Rev 20:4 from the Greek and English that you consult, or the name, edition, ISBN number, etc. of the book in front of you.

And you still don't identify your Greek text source or post it's content, but nonetheless proceed to make a straw man out of my Nestle hypothetical translation (knowing full well it is irrelevant to 'the Greek text you consult') . Yet another red herring.

And those on thrones now are relevant?

I suspect you are only attempting to divert others from the weakness of your argument regarding the distinction of those on thrones from the souls based on the KJV punctuation marks.

Any diversion is entirely yours. Not once have I ever stated those on thrones were resurrected. I have oft stated we don't know who they are. My argument in Rev 20:4 has been and remains that the souls of Rev 20:4 are those beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and the bible (possibly the 5th Seal martyrs) and not worshipping the beast and rejecting his mark, and they were killed during the tribulation and now live again with Christ 1000 years. You have continually argued to distinguish the souls from the beheaded, not from those on thrones.

Those on thrones seen by John have absolutely no relevance to this point, other than as another red herring tossed out by you.

The souls of Rev 20:4 killed by the beast:

Starwind #2082: "The pivotal issue is not that John reiterate that he "saw" them (as opposed to "heard" them, which distinction would be important) but that they were souls. Souls that had been killed in either or both ways; 1) 5th seal martyrs of Rev 6:9-11 or 2) killed by the beast (Rev 13:14-17)."

Jean Chauvin #2091: Here’s our Rev 13 citation again. Help a brother out, please. Could you show me specifically where it says in Rev 13 that those who did not worship the beast were killed? I’ve read this several times and still have yet to see a reference to the actual killing of persons who did not worship the beast. I’ve asked you repeatedly to show me this. You have yet do so.

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The beast has the power to kill those who withstand worshipping the beasts image (and taking the mark).

Rev 15:1-2 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

And here prior to the beginning of the 7 bowls or plagues, those who didn't succumb to worshipping the beast or taking his mark were killed and are now in heaven - souls.

You could have looked these up. What is your problem?

Ad hominems:

Starwind #2004: "And I can not overlook the implied attack: Why do you have to lie?"

Attack? You claim that “What Rev 20 literally tells us is that the first resurrection is bodily”. Rev 20 “literally” tells us no such thing. You are lying to assert that.

I can look all day long in Rev 20 for the “literal” words “the first resurrection is bodily” and I will never find it. In fact, you never even find explicit words declaring something has risen from the dead.

Au Contrare! Here are explicit words (for the 3rd time, READ IT THIS TME. OK?): Rev 20:13a And the sea gave up the dead which were in it

'the rest of the dead' introduced in Rev 20:5 (those over whom the second death does have power), are then further described in Rev 20:13 as including those given up by the sea, which clearly is a reference to graves or physical burial at sea. They were physically alive and then physically died and are now standing ('lived' as per Rev 20:5) at the white throne, so in the context they lived 'again'.

And I can look all day long in Rev 20 for the literal words "the thousand years is an era" or "Satan is already bound" and I will never find it. But I don't call you a liar. And therein, Jean, is the difference between us.

When I've known I was incorrect, I've freely pointed it out, as I did in my post #1811:

So, I thought I was seeing the original Greek when I referred to anazao ou anazao but that appears to be the Greek root words used to explain the english text, not the original Greek from which the English is derived.

So you can hide behind your unidentified Greek text, straw men, reading impairments, and ad hominem attacks - the last refuge of the bankrupt argument.

But that has not changed the millennium one iota.

In the first resurrection of Rev 20:4-6, the souls John saw who live and reign with Christ are physically resurrected (as explained in this post and post #1997), not spiritually regenerated.

The coming to life 'again' of 'the rest of the dead' (physically dead) is likewise physical (note the sea gave up the dead in Rev 20:13), not a spiritual resurrection, though being spiritually dead, 'the rest of the dead' presumably experience the second death in the lake of fire.

As explained by gracebeliever in post #1972, and nobdysfool in post #1999, regeneration is not resurrection, and spiritual regeneration is not physical resurrection. Rev 20 is the physical resurrection of both those who were previously spiritually regenerated to eternal life (Rev 20:4, 5b, 6), and the physical resurrection of those unregenerate 'dead' who will be condemned to the lake of fire (Rev 20:5a, 11-15).

The first resurrection of Rev 20:4-6 precedes the white throne judgment and 2nd death of 'the rest of dead' by a real 1000 year millennium. There is no requirement to construe John 5:28,29 as mandating the same simultaneous hour of resurrection for both groups (those who have done 'good' and 'evil'), and would further complicate the plain language of Rev 20:11-15 on judgment and condemnation of 'the rest of the dead' by their works alone. This has been explained in post #854, post #861, post #865 and post #951.

What Rev 20 literally tells us is that the first resurrection is bodily, not spiritual (as explained in this post and post #1734 and post #1778 and post #1809). It is a resurrection of souls who learned the gospel during the tribulation (as explained in post #1347, post #1382 and post #1391) and rejected a real graven mark of the beast (as explained in post #1068). The 1000 year millennium is real (not merely metaphorically 'vast' as was explained in post #1133 and post #1155), is God's plan, not Satan's (as explained in post #1228), and singular (as was explained in post #1402 and post #1810). None of which has happened yet and Satan is not yet bound and won't be until that future 1000 years.

2,227 posted on 12/13/2002 5:44:35 PM PST by Starwind
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To: Starwind
You ping me here, I see the thread title, "Is Satan Bound Today?"... ...and I think, for the ___th time, about how if it weren't for Traditionalism ("Reformed," in this case), someone would have answered the question with a

"Well, duh!"

, the other Biblically oriented Christians would have agreed, and we'd have moved on.

Dan

2,228 posted on 12/13/2002 5:57:36 PM PST by BibChr
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To: xzins
You indicated that the belief had changed , that we were no longer to believe one day is as a thousand years to God..that means either Peter "heard " wrong and his letter never should have been seen as inspired...or God changed the way he views time..(Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.)...or the Holy Spirit was not being truthful...

Which is is?

Is a thousad years like a day to God or not?

2,229 posted on 12/13/2002 6:10:34 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
It is truly both, Rn. The scripture says that a day is as a thousand years and that a thousand years is as a day.

It is scripture. It is true.

2,230 posted on 12/13/2002 6:19:38 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
So then the highly symbolic language of Revelation 20 may not be a literal thousand years ...it may be 1000,000 years...or a day
2,231 posted on 12/13/2002 6:22:10 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: BibChr
Really! One would think.

Just looking at the rise of satanic cults and the slaughter of Christians world-wide ought to to give one pause.
2,232 posted on 12/13/2002 6:23:32 PM PST by Starwind
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To: BibChr; Jean Chauvin; the_doc; RnMomof7
You ping me here, I see the thread title, "Is Satan Bound Today?"... ...and I think, for the ___th time, about how if it weren't for Traditionalism ("Reformed," in this case), someone would have answered the question with a "Well, duh!" , the other Biblically oriented Christians would have agreed, and we'd have moved on.

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

Query:

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."



2,233 posted on 12/13/2002 6:27:37 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Starwind
Just looking at the rise of satanic cults and the slaughter of Christians world-wide ought to to give one pause.

They hung Christ...

2,234 posted on 12/13/2002 6:29:59 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
They hung Christ...

Yep. And it's gone downhill since.

2,235 posted on 12/13/2002 6:42:42 PM PST by Starwind
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To: Starwind; RnMomof7; the_doc; CCWoody
They hung Christ... Yep. And it's gone downhill since. 2235 posted on 12/13/2002 6:42 PM PST by Starwind

Dude... it's gone uphill since. You just aren't seeing it, are you??

I guess that maybe you have to be an Amillennialist to see that.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

2,236 posted on 12/13/2002 6:57:20 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Starwind
You act as if they took Christs life from Him

His voluntary death gave me life...

2,237 posted on 12/13/2002 7:03:00 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Is it necessary that the Strong Man be BOUND, before HIS HOUSE IS PLUNDERED of the vessels therein?

My simple, honest, brother-to-brother answer is that insofar as you allude to Matthew 12:29 then yes, obviously. The Lord Jesus said so, and that settles it.

And yet, when we examine post-Pentecostal teachings on Satan, he in no way is bound in the sense of being deprived of his customary freedom or theater of operations (as depicted in Revelation 20). No, at the present time, Satan persuading professed believers to sin so seriously that they must be put to death (Acts 5:3), he still holds people in his power so that they needs sovereign deliverance (Acts 26:18), he his not yet crushed under our feet (Romans 16:20), he tempts married Christians (1 Corinthians 7:5), he has designs of which Christians must beware (2 Corinthians 2:11), he harrassed Paul (2 Corinthians 12:7), he has schemes we must resist (Ephesians 6:11), he hindered Paul (1 Thessalonians 2:18), he will be active in the End Times (2 Thessalonians 2:9), he prowls about like a roaring lion, looking to devour (1 Peter 5:7), and the whole world lies in his power (1 John 5:19).

I think you'd have to say that's pretty spry, overall. I must say, in simple friendly candor, that "bound" is not one of the words that would ever occur to be to describe Satan's current state in the face of those descriptions.

So Jesus talks about him being bound, and this considerable body of evidence depicts him as being intensely active, as fully as ever (for he has never been able to go beyond God's permissions; Job 1 and 2) — but then at some point he shall be bound for a period, unable to lead the nations astray, falling and falling.

As a Christian, I'm bound (accidental pun) to believe all of this, and everything else the Bible says. An honest Biblical doctrine of Satan, then, has to put that all together.

So somehow we must take Jesus' words seriously, the apostles' words seriously, and the words of Revelation 20 seriously. It would be wise to consider what our older brothers in the faith have said about them.

But it would be folly to follow them where they erred.

I may not think much of some you call "FRiend," but I certainly do consider you mine, as I have for years.

Dan

2,238 posted on 12/13/2002 7:05:09 PM PST by BibChr
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
"And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

Ah, yes, this is important to the argument!

2,239 posted on 12/13/2002 7:13:01 PM PST by the_doc
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To: xzins
.......One More Time!

........'light-on'.....?

...."So then FAITH cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

(Romans 10:17)

2,240 posted on 12/13/2002 7:41:10 PM PST by maestro
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