Replies

” Nowhere in the Bible did God, His Prophets, Christ, or his Apostles declare that his commands were situational. In fact, quite the opposite is true. He demands 100% of our will, not 90%, not 95%, not even 99%. We can’t pick and choose the situations that we are going to apply God’s laws and commands to; it does not matter if you actually believe or fear that Obama has the power to bring this nation to it’s knees. What matters, if we are truly Christians, is that we obey God.

You cannot compartmentalize your Christianity or apply filters to which scenario you remain loyal to Christ and those you will not be loyal to Christ. “

My! I guess that due to the fact that Americans can be just like Christ, there was really no reason for Him to die on that cross. I suppose we just have to bite the bullet, and allow the Muslim Communist to destroy our country(the last real bastion of Christianity and world-wide Christian evangelism, mind you).

As for “compartmentalized Christianity” by chance, did you vote for Ronald Reagan ? Do you realize that in spite of his Christianity, he was divorced, and had sex outside of marriage a few times? You keep trying to equate Christianity with politicians, and it won’t work. Politicians are sinful, fallible human beings.

If you want reductio ad absurdum, as Christians, should we not open our borders to every poor person.....you know,including Muslim Underground psychos, and Somali pirates? Surely, we can handle 300 million extra Chinese peasants, and 300 million poor street urchins from India. Have you emptied your checking and savings accounts, sold your home, and given it all to the poor ?

Look, I despise Romney, but we have a situation whereby
a single man will destroy this country, if he is not stopped. That leaves us a terribly flawed man to stop the communist onslaught. You say it is God’s will that we allow western civilization to collapse, because Romney is a sinner. Jesus spent most of his time with the worst of us, and died on the cross TO SAVE ALL OF US. You are not saved by allowing the destruction of America, indeed western civilization, and the last real hope of the spreading of Christianity throughout the world. You are saved by God’s Grace. Live with it, and quit trying to play God. He has no equal.

Ping to 177. I would appreciate your input.

just like Christ, there was really no reason for Him to die on that cross.

That part doesn't make sense to me. What did you mean by that?

It's difficult to talk spiritual matters on FR, or anywhere on the internet, it's why I rarely do so. That being said: Good post.

I don't actually despise Romney, I just don't care for his governance record and don't fully trust him, he's clearly a RINO.

At this point, I'll walk over broken glass to get rid of the Marxist stain on our country. If I have to put up with disappointment over Mtt's silly RINO tendencies, I will; at least I won't fear waking up every day to the newest horrible thing that the administration has done to this country. Since 2009 it has been every. single. day. We won't have a country left if the stain is reelected.

"Look, I despise Romney, but we have a situation whereby a single man will destroy this country, if he is not stopped. "

C'mon man no single man can destroy this country. Elect a Conservative Congress if you are concerned. What has been eating away the country is voters wasting their vote by giving a mandate to persons they don't agree with. The choices then keep getting worse until you have the destruction.

You cannot compartmentalize your Christianity or apply filters to which scenario you remain loyal to Christ and those you will not be loyal to Christ. “...soconpubbie...

I suppose we just have to bite the bullet, and allow the Muslim Communist to destroy our country(the last real bastion of Christianity and world-wide Christian evangelism, mind you)...You say it is God’s will that we allow western civilization to collapse,... SJB...

here goes my .02...

i believe both are correct and wrong, due primarily in the sense that we cannot comprehend Gods nature, much less His Plan...

i believe that for myself to vote *for* mittens is a bad choice, because it perpetuates the perceived lock that the rin-o-p has on my vote, every 4 yrs playing the FEAR card, and daring me to say "HELL NO !!!"

also, principles-wise, or morally, i cannot do it, not because mittens is a sinner [we all are] or because i believe that it will taint me in the eyes of God [been there, done that and Lord Jesus must cleanse me of new transgression each day]...quite simply, he just repulses me, and i dont see the few scraps of difference to be worth my endorsement *for* him...

CHRISTianity-wise, i believe we are all a part of the body, and serve our functions to the universal Church at His tasks...throughtout the ages, some have been passive and were martyrs... some have been aggressive and violent crusaders...most somewhere in between...

Peter lopped off the ear of the high priests cousin, and later allowed himself to be crucified w/o a fight...

which of those attitudes were 'right' or 'wrong' ??? i say they were both done in service to the Lord, so they were exactely what needed to be done, in their respective times and places...

I dont fear bambam...nor do i fear mittens...i FEAR God, and will try to perceive and do my job, according to the small, still voice that leads me [when i allow it to do so]...today, as of this writing, I will write-in the name of Lord Jesus, and hopefully, millions of others will do so as a testament of true repentence...

dont know if this makes any sense, but i do know that voting the lesser of evil men has not been workin out too well, and i have been a LOT less anxious about this campaign cycle in knowing that God is going to have His Will done, no matter which human takes the election...

There were a lot of comments on this thread. I'm sure some of them were great. These two posts touched on the dilema Christians, Conservatives, Republicans, and the rest of Citizens of the Uhited States face when determining what they will do concerning the Presidential candidates we consider voting for this November 6th. I will address points made by these two people with opposing opinions.

Although I have come to the same end conclusion that SoConPubbie has ultimately come to, it's not for the same reasons. I'll touch on that at the end of my comments.

To: stephenjohnbanker; mkjessup; xzins; VinL; ex-snook; sport; INVAR; ejonesie22; PieterCasparzen; ...

    Here is your problem. We are voting for a politician, not Jesus Christ.(in Romneys case voting against Obama, not for Romney)

    First of all, sorry for being so tardy replying to you. I can't post at work and had to go to my kid's school Open House after work.
    Now, with regards to your previous post, No Stephen, that is not the issue for Christians. Issue 01
    Nowhere in the Bible did God, His Prophets, Christ, or his Apostles declare that his commands were situational. In fact, quite the opposite is true. He demands 100% of our will, not 90%, not 95%, not even 99%. We can't pick and choose the situations that we are going to apply God's laws and commands to; it does not matter if you actually believe or fear that Obama has the power to bring this nation to it's knees. What matters, if we are truly Christians, is that we obey God.
    You cannot compartmentalize your Christianity or apply filters to which scenario you remain loyal to Christ and those you will not be loyal to Christ. Issue 02
    If Millions of Christians over the centuries have chosen to remain true to Christ, even in the face of certain death because they refused to recant their faith in God, how can you and I as Conservative Christians throw away our faith by supporting a man who knowingly supports what he knows is evil, the Abortion of Babies and the Homosexual agenda even if we fear the damage that Obama might do? Issue 03
    Is your faith in a political party or is it in an Almighty, ALL-KNOWING God? Issue 04
    Christianity was never meant to be partial or situational. Issue 05
    Voting for Romney, when he supports the murders of babies and the Abomination of the Gay Agenda puts you in the place of doing just that. Issue 06

159 posted on Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:35:42 PM by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency.)

To: SoConPubbie; mkjessup; xzins; VinL; ex-snook; sport; INVAR; ejonesie22; PieterCasparzen; onyx

    Nowhere in the Bible did God, His Prophets, Christ, or his Apostles declare that his commands were situational. In fact, quite the opposite is true. He demands 100% of our will, not 90%, not 95%, not even 99%. We can’t pick and choose the situations that we are going to apply God’s laws and commands to; it does not matter if you actually believe or fear that Obama has the power to bring this nation to it’s knees. What matters, if we are truly Christians, is that we obey God. You cannot compartmentalize your Christianity or apply filters to which scenario you remain loyal to Christ and those you will not be loyal to Christ.

    My! I guess that due to the fact that Americans can be just like Christ, there was really no reason for Him to die on that cross. Issue 07 I suppose we just have to bite the bullet, and allow the Muslim Communist to destroy our country(the last real bastion of Christianity and world-wide Christian evangelism, mind you). Issue 08
    As for “compartmentalized Christianity” by chance, did you vote for Ronald Reagan? Issue 09 Do you realize that in spite of his Christianity, he was divorced, and had sex outside of marriage a few times? Issue 10 You keep trying to equate Christianity with politicians, and it won’t work. Politicians are sinful, fallible human beings. Issue 11
    If you want reductio ad absurdum, as Christians, should we not open our borders to every poor person.....you know,including Muslim Underground psychos, and Somali pirates? Surely, we can handle 300 million extra Chinese peasants, and 300 million poor street urchins from India. Have you emptied your checking and savings accounts, sold your home, and given it all to the poor? Issue 12
    Look, I despise Romney, but we have a situation whereby a single man will destroy this country, if he is not stopped. Issue 13 That leaves us a terribly flawed man to stop the communist onslaught. Issue 14 You say it is God’s will that we allow western civilization to collapse, because Romney is a sinner. Issue 15 Jesus spent most of his time with the worst of us, and died on the cross TO SAVE ALL OF US. Issue 16 You are not saved by allowing the destruction of America, indeed western civilization, and the last real hope of the spreading of Christianity throughout the world. Issue 17 You are saved by God’s Grace. Live with it, Issue 18 and quit trying to play God. He has no equal. Issue 19

177 posted on Friday, August 31, 2012 11:03:07 AM by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)

Issue 01: Actually, SoConPubbie, it is a part of what we need to take into account leading up to November 6th, 2012. There is a strong moral decision to be made here. Both these men have supported abortion. Both of them have pushed other Leftist policy. No man is perfect. What it all comes down to for some people is, which man is better? We all detest Obama. What if our nation was attacked. Would we refuse his call for us to defend our nation based on his unacceptable political priorities? Well our nation is under attack. Are we going to refuse Romney's call for us to defend our nation based on his unacceptable political priorities? If we allow this nation to fall, is there no moral complicity? Would this not be considered a sin, considering what this nation has always stood for, that no other nation has? Would the God who blessed our nation formed as a result of the search for Religious Liberty, truly want us to stand by idly and watch it go down without taking part to prevent it? Agree with this argument or not, it is a valid argument to make, and good men of all stripes must contemplate it.

Issue 02: Sounds real good, until you consider that all men are sinful. Sounds real good until you realize that even God backs sinners against other sinners. Does that mean that God is compartmentalizing His Perfection? There are some agruments I wouldn't make. In your comments under Issue 02, you made some I wouldn't have. Does that mean I am in conflict with God. Since he does back certain sinners against others, I don't believe so. Once again, this may not be a compelling enough argument for some people. It's still a valid argument. It is something to think about. Did God continue to bless David after his sins? As a matter of fact, for a long time He did. David had ordered the murder of a adult man, a husband. For the good of Israel as a whole, he allowed David to remain king and a strong king. He also saw to it that David was able to hand down his kingdom to his son. Was this God compartmentalizing?

Issue 03: In your statement I have labeled Issue 03, you try to compare a person's peronal stand based on their own beliefs where they are the only person at stake, with one where a person has to evaluate two levels of evil to make a decision about a collective choice to block the worst one. In one instance, the person is making a moral stand that will only cost their own life. In the other, the person is making a moral decision concerning the life of a nation containing 310 million lives. It's not really the same thing. And no, you can't just glibly retort that it really is. No, making a decision that only impacts you, is not the same as making a decision where hundreds of millions of other people will have to suffer the consequences of your decision. I'm not convinced God would view them the same. It's up to other Christians to contemplate this. It's not a black and white issue.

Issue 04: Faith is a interesting word. One moment it can be used in conjunction with God, and the next it can be used in conjunction with a person many of us thinks of as an agent of supreme evil. I have faith that God will ultimately do right by us. I have faith that God will destroy evil. I also have faith that Barack Obama will institute new levels of evil in his second term. I have faith that many U. S. Citizens will be harmed by his efforts. Sadly, I have faith that Mitt Romney will also do harm. I just have faith that he will do less harm. Now, does God expect us to ensure that less harm comes to our nation? I'm not totally convinced He doesn't. Good thinking people will contemplate this, as they make up their minds this year.

Issue 05: Except that God Himself chooses to support men who are sinners.   I think I'm rather safe thinking that God is not sinning by doing so. Perhaps you have better inside information.

Issue 06: What's this, the third or forth time you've said/asked the same thing? Well nevermind, lets move on. One hundred thousand men women and children are located in a valley. A formidable enemy is approaching and only two generals are available to lead. One is a complete imbecile, incapable of leading, and his selection would mean all would be lost. Every man woman and child would die. The other general is quite good. Losses would still occur, but those losses would be far less. Oh, and both men are evil sinful people. Should the populace refuse to back either general to lead their forces? After all, Christianity IS NOT situational. Should the good these one hundred thousand people and their progeny would do down through eternity, be eliminated so they can avoid compartmentalization of their Christianity?

I appreciate your point of view, but I remain unconvinced your arguments hold water, even if your ulimate decision is the same as mine.

Issue 07: Romney is far enough from the perfection model, that I'm not sure this is the correct argument to make. I say that with some reservation too. For all that I consider to be his human failings, I do think Romney is to be admired for some things. His family seems to be a solid one. His kids seem to respect him. His wife obviously does. His grand-kids do. When I take a look at that family, I am moved to think he did some things very right. I obviously don't think he's pefect. And I obviously don't think we should wait for some WHO IS to come along. None the less, we can do a hell of a lot better than this.

Issue 08: I think that is a powerful argument. It is something that must be considered. IMO, it was something God had to contemplate when he blessed Israel in battle, despite King David's failings.

Issue 09: Oh man, I sure don't like where this seems to be heading...

Issue 10: Oooppp!!! I may be too old school for this, but I don't like doing the Left's work for it, tearing down Reagan to make someone else look better. That is precisely what they do. Now some of us do it too. IMO, we shouldn't... EVER! When temped to go in this direction, don't. When tempted to go in this direction, go in another. No Reagan wasn't pefect, but he was a damn good man. Picking the bones of a good man, is no way to make a point. It merely deminishes a person we should encourage people to emulate.

Issue 11: The comparison doesn't bother me, because politicians are not the only ones who are fallible human beings. So are Christians. I just think it's imperative we remember that at all times.

Issue 12: I agree with this line of reasoning. Some Christian absolutists would agree we should liquidate all that we have and give it to the poor. The end conclusion of that is that in short order we would all be poor. And then there would be nobody of means left to help any of us. That's not what God desires. We are to minister to our families, as He does the church. Would God advocate we liquidate all church assets and give it to the poor? No. Should we then liquidate all family assets? No. MODERATION in ALL things... Joseph had an obligation to house and provide for Mary and Jesus. I think your comments were quite sound here.

Issue 13: I tend to agree, but then I tended to agree that Bill Clinton would too. Are we right here, or is this another instance where we're going overboard? I do have concerns about this aspect of Obama.

Issue 14: I'm not convinced you or anyone is wrong that is making this case.

Issue 15: I agree that is one possible implication. It's also an implication that it is flat wrong to support evil of that level. I honestly don't see this is as cut and dried as either side thinks.

Issue 16: Jesus did spend some time with some pretty shadey people. I think He spent most of his time with your average human sinner though. He obviously spent some time with very good people too. He did die for them all. He forgave a murderer and promised salvation on the cross. It almost makes you think that under some circumstances Mitt Romey might get the same attention. It's part of the reason why I don't trash Romney as if he has no redeeming value. We all have some redeeming values. We all have some damning values. God will sort that out in time. I am led to believe this world would be a lot better place, if we all spent 1/1000th as much time on our own salvation, that we do on other's. This is not meant to absolve Romney for the just rewards of life decisions, and that justifiably impacts our decisions at times like this.

Issue 17: I agree with that.

Issue 18: Yes, we hope to be saved by God's grace. In the meantime we must remember that we will not be saved by doing any evil we desire, then claiming salvation through faith. If we are truly repentant, and followers of God, we will live the best lives we can. When contemplating the evil of others as well as ourselves, I think it's important to remember Saul. Saul was engaged in killing as many Christians as he could. Then God revealed himself to Saul, and the sinner became a champion of God doing the exact opposite of what he had been doing before. That is the miracle of Christianity. Too many of us Christians would have cut Saul off at the knees. God, for whatever reason, found it a better object lesson to convert him so thoroughly that he changed his name to Paul, and led out in His efforts. Can Mitt Romney experience a Saul/Paul moment? Is our faith in God strong enough to believe it? It should be, with some real world reservations that it would happen.

Issue 19: No, we are not God, and should not pretend to know His complete understanding.

+ + + + + + + + + +

Ultimately, I am not convinced God wants us to back Mitt Romney. There are short term and long term ramifications of a decision either way on this. Do we allow the Left to destroy their credibilty for all time? Do we allow Romney to go in and continue on with deficit spending for years to come? Do we allow him to replace one government health care plan with his own favorite? Do we allow a man who supports same sex marriage to govern this nation?

As Christians, this is not an easy choice.

To date, I still cannot back Mitt Romney.

I’m not religious so I can’t speak to all the finer points of the Bible, the last time I was in a church was when my mom begged me to go with her to some Christmas music thing.

But look, our house is on fire. The only bucket of water is the nominee of the Republican party. And it’s it Romney so it’s more like a bucket of pee and the house is gonna stink but the immediate concern is the fire.

And I’m a guy who hates our last RINO President and have wondered out loud if maybe it would have been better if he had not gotten another term.

No matter what Romney does I doubt it will be so damaging that I look back and wish Obama had won. If it is I’ll eat crow but right now I can’t breath in here, the fire has to be put out.