Merry Christmas, and now that Santa has departed and hopefully raygun is dunking his head in water, to wash the cr*p out of his brain...
Unilateral secession-ism is the key point of debate in all these threads.
Many posters, and not all of them Lost Causers, agree that the Deep South acted Constitutionally in 1860 and early 1861, in unilaterally seceding without "mutual consent" or from "usurpations" and "abuses" by the Federal Government.
The issue is whether our Founders considered their new Constitution to be a binding contract that could not just be dissolved "at pleasure"?
Quotes from Madison and others clearly show the Constitution was binding and "forever."
Of course, Lost Causers have their own quotes, but who are those?
People like Patrick Henry who did not help write the Constitution, and indeed, voted against it, precisely because they thought it provided the Federal Government with too much power.
So the Constitution was never intended to be some sort of social club that you might join one month and quit the next.
It was more like a marriage, which could only be broken for the most serious of reasons, and then only after all other recourses had failed.
But in 1860, none of these conditions existed, and the Deep South began seceding "at pleasure".
But they didn't just secede.
They also immediately began forcibly seizing dozens of Federal properties -- forts, ships, armories, customs houses, a mint -- and firing on Federal forces and ships.
Fort Sumter was only the most memorable of those incidents.
In Texas for example, Union troops were surrendered and treated as prisoners of war.
And all of this was before the South declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861.
And it was before a single federal force had crossed a single Confederate border for any military purpose beyond defending Federal forts.
And once the South declared war, there was no alternative and no turning back -- it had to be defeated, unconditionally.
And while they were at it, the reason for the South's secession had to be destroyed -- slavery.
patriot preacher: "the issue was the Constitution — and who was the greatest arbiter of the powers delegated by it to the governments (federal and state), and the rightful heirs of liberty (the people)."
And that, of course, is the Big Lie -- the Lie that all true Southerners tell each other, that mothers tell their babies, that fathers tell their sons -- the Big Lie of Southern Innocence.
And it's totally untrue.
In truth, the Deep South first unlawfully breached the Constitutional contract (beginning in December 1860), then illegally seized Union properties and attacked Union forces (January thru April 1861), and then declared war on the United States (May 6, 1861).
Eventually, the South raised or sent its own forces into every neighboring Union state and territory, beginning in Missouri before even their declaration of war.
patriot preacher: "the bottom line is still that what passes for “conservative” in Washington, and in most elections are offered up as “conservatives” are not really all that Constitutional or Conservative."
True enough -- while only 20% of Americans admit to being "liberal", meaning they want bigger, more expensive and more controlling government;
And over 40% say they are "conservative," meaning they want smaller, less expensive and less controlling government.
And yet, for about 100 years now, bigger government "progressives" and "liberals" have steadily defeated smaller-government conservatives magnifying the Federal Government from less than 3% of the economy in say, 1900, to now headed for 30%.
Government at all levels is well over 40% of GDP.
At the same time the national debt and unfunded but legal obligations are up in the $trillions so high that nobody can really count them all.
In short, the country is being driven into the ground and most Americans understand it, and want it stopped.
How truly "conservative" are most Americans? Impossible to say --
Personally, I think Calvin Coolidge was a great president, and 5% of GDP seems like enough to cover the military.
So I'd be pretty pleased if we ever got that far.
But the total reality is: that's not going to happen, not in our life-times. Instead, the battle-lines today are here: how do we stop the already obese Federal Government from growing beyond today's 25% to over 30% in a few years?
That's practical politics today.
Everything else is grand theory and will have no bearing on our lifetimes.
patriot preacher: "The nation is headed for some sort of catastrophe — or collapse. What then?"
It won't happen if the adults (conservatives, Republicans) can take over government soon enough, and strongly enough, and send the children (liberals, progressives, Democrats) for a "spanking" in the woodshed.
Then our country will soon enough return to doing what it does better than anyone: providing many opportunities for people willing to work and achieve.
patriot pastor: "Now, to be consistent — would you support Barack Obama, or whoever was in command in Washington, D.C., to “preserve the Union?”
Can’t have the States threaten to go their own way, can you?
Not even for the sake of Liberty, or to preserve the Constitution...."
Here's what you don't understand: states today already have far more power than they have been willing to exercise.
How is that?
It's because the states have been bought-off and corrupted by the overwhelming size and wealth of the Federal Government.
When the Federal Government is handing out billions and trillions of dollars, what state can refuse to line up at the Federal trough?
If the states were willing to stand up against the Feds today they could help reign it in.
And a significant example of that could turn out to be Obamacare.
One state acting alone can make a small difference.
Many states acting together could make a big difference -- especially if those states consistently elect Representatives and Senators who share a strongly conservative view of the Federal Government.
And if they wish to secede, then that's a matter for Congress to debate and decide, just as it was in 1860.
;-)
Here’s what you don’t understand: states today already have far more power than they have been willing to exercise.
How is that?
It’s because the states have been bought-off and corrupted by the overwhelming size and wealth of the Federal Government.
When the Federal Government is handing out billions and trillions of dollars, what state can refuse to line up at the Federal trough.
If the states were willing to stand up against the Feds today they could help reign it in.
And a significant example of that could turn out to be Obamacare.
One state acting alone can make a small difference.
Many states acting together could make a big difference — especially if those states consistently elect Representatives and Senators who share a strongly conservative view of the Federal Government.
And if they wish to secede, then that’s a matter for Congress to debate and decide, just as it was in 1860.
One who believes the oppressor must gain the permission of the despot to throw off the chains of tyranny has no understanding of the intent of of our Founders or our nation’s early history. Neither the Declaration nor the Constitution could ever be cited to justify such an idea. Though it is true that many in the States have been bought by Washington, as you mentioned, and I do agree that the States have far more power than they are asserting. But if they ever try to assert them, the Feds will close them down or circumvent them in a second. That’s they way they roll.
Hope you’ve had a happy holiday season :-)
Proving a bruised Yankee ego is a bloody and dangerous thing, indeed.
Wow, I appreciate the candor. IYO, Freedom of association and self governance is a lie, just wow.