Abe Lincoln was a dictator??? (Need Help combating loony argument)

[erod]

Hi FRiends,

I have two brothers who I love very much, they’re young and libertarian Ron Paul supporters, sigh. We get along and I’m hoping that one day they’ll come back to conservatism, but they have bought into a theory that I don’t think makes much sense:

Abe Lincoln was a dictator.

There are many websites dedicated to this nonsense you can Google "Abe Lincoln dictator" and get some weird stuff, if you want to check it out.

I need your help in busting this myth are there any books I can read on this subject to dispel this stuff? Do you know any of the arguments to combat this nonsense? Ie. Lincoln did not want to free the slaves.

Thanks for taking time out of your day to help me out, -Erod

[southernsunshine]

“You can argue both sides were wrong but you can’t argue for the virtue of the CSA. They left the union for a crappy and moronic reason.”

IMHO, I think what is often left out of these discussions are the states which originally wished to preserve the Union but ended up with the Confederacy due to Lincoln’s call for troops. States that believed those who wished to secede had the right to do so but did not initially wish to secede themselves. Because of this, I don’t believe every state left the Union for crappy reasons.

Also, within each state there were individuals, and groups, who were abolishionists, pro-slavery, and some who didn’t care either way. The individual aspect of it all. I sometimes wonder if we truly comprehend the annihilation of an entire generation of men and boys. The horror of it all. I, personally, cannot paint either side with a broad brush due to these reasons.

As to the issue of slavery itself, I do agree with you.

[cowboyway]

For the sake of arguement, let's assume the Confederacy won their independence on the battlefield and that for the most part the rest of history remained constant. In that scenarion the Great Depression still happens. Some of the strongest supporters of FDRs policies came from the South. Men like Huey Long, LBJ, Sam Rayburn, all went for the Democrats New Deal plans hook, line, and sinker.

Southern victory in the War of Northern Aggression would have had much different results than the linear conclusions that you are attempting to draw.

First of all, States Rights would have been cast in stone as with the right to secede thereby ensuring that politicians, such as disHonest Abe, FDR and Obama, would give considerable pause before treading on the rights of the people of the various states.

Second, the South, decimated by The War, would not have been further decimated by that atrocity called Reconstruction.

Third, you can't assume that the South, a mostly agrian nation, would have suffered through a depression.

Fourth, and most importantly, Southerners are different than yankees and all you need to do is look a red state/blue state map from the last several elections to see it. We were conservative then, we're conservative now.

Fifth, we would have had to remain constantly vigilant against subsequent invasion(s) from the north, meaning that we would have kept a strong standing army and navy and that every household would be armed to the teeth (kinda like they are now).

End the occupation!
Free Dixie!!

[southernsunshine]

“First of all, States Rights would have been cast in stone as with the right to secede thereby ensuring that politicians, such as disHonest Abe, FDR and Obama, would give considerable pause before treading on the rights of the people of the various states.”

BINGO! We have a winner!!!!!

[lentulusgracchus]

I’ll admit Sumner wasn’t a paragon of bi-partisan outreach. Sumner was the Ann Coulter of his days and Preston Brooks was Keith Olbermann.

Fair enough.

[southernsunshine]

I forgot to include you in my post to Impy @ 701.

[mojitojoe]

Had the Confederacy won their independence, what would the Confederate States of America be like today?
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I think that is an impossible question to answer. How can anyone know?

[central_va]

Plus the North could pursue their socialist utopia unhindered. It would be perfect up their now, 140 yrs. without those rednecks holding them back.

[lentulusgracchus]

Tennessee also accomplished a de facto secession by an act of the legislature.
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Secession was approved 104,471 to 47,183 by The People

---

Was there any evidence of voter suppression and fraud as per the Colonel's suggestion, e.g. a wide difference in return totals between the secession ratification vote and the 1860 presidential election vote?

[Idabilly]

Southern victory in the War of Northern Aggression would have had much different results than the linear conclusions that you are attempting to draw. First of all, States Rights would have been cast in stone as with the right to secede thereby ensuring that politicians, such as disHonest Abe, FDR and Obama, would give considerable pause before treading on the rights of the people of the various states. Second, the South, decimated by The War, would not have been further decimated by that atrocity called Reconstruction. Third, you can't assume that the South, a mostly agrian nation, would have suffered through a depression. Fourth, and most importantly, Southerners are different than yankees and all you need to do is look a red state/blue state map from the last several elections to see it. We were conservative then, we're conservative now. Fifth, we would have had to remain constantly vigilant against subsequent invasion(s) from the north, meaning that we would have kept a strong standing army and navy and that every household would be armed to the teeth (kinda like they are now).

End the occupation! Free Dixie!!

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[equalitybeforethelaw]

Walk silently, my friend.

Next, they’ll be bashing George Washington.

Flying the British union jack,of course........

According the brighter lights here, owning a slave was reason to ignore all other human rights, so going with the NS-SoothingDave-Impy imperative, he too was horrible and disgusting.

[mojitojoe]

I’ve been sitting back watching you guys rip apart Lincoln and anyone who dares to support him.
___________________
I don’t rip apart anyone that dares support him, just people that are obsessed with him and think he is like God(non-sequitur). People that have spent about 8-12 hours a day for 6 years pissing on anyone and anything that has to do with the South(non-seqitur). At some point a debate became something that became all consuming with NS. Copy and pasting things out of context, hoping that people will believe him, is not going to go uncontested.
I remain a Linclon hater and will remain so until the day I die. He is no better than any common run of the mill terrorist. He is responsible for the slaughter and destruction in the South. Granted he paid the ultimate price in the end, but it still didn’t being back the hundreds of thousands of lives that were lost, property that was destroyed and seized.
I hope Lincoln enjoys eternity in hell, because that is where he is.

[mojitojoe]

You ask questions that are impossible to answer. IMPOSSIBLE!

[mojitojoe]

How would it know?
___________
LOL, IF you knew who “it” was you wouldn’t have to ask that question.

[Idabilly]

Was there any evidence of voter suppression and fraud as per the Colonel's suggestion, e.g. a wide difference in return totals between the secession ratification vote and the 1860 presidential election vote?

----------------------------------------------------

We must remember, Secession was voted down by Tennesseans until, armed forced was indicated, by Lincoln.

If Kangaroo is correct - It wouldn't compare to what took place in - Kentucky,Maryland,etc

State Of Maryland

Legislative Resolution

Whereas, The war against the Confederate States is unconstitutional and repugnant to civilization, and will result in a bloody and shameful overthrow of our institutions; and whilst recognizing the obligations of Maryland to the Union, we sympathize with the South in the struggle for their rights-for the sake of humanity, we are for peace and reconciliation, and solemnly protest against this war, and will take no part in it:-- Resolved, That Maryland implores the President, in the name of God, to cease this unholy war, at least until Congress assembles; that Maryland desires and consents to the recognition of the independence of the Confederate States. The military occupation of Maryland is unconstitutional, and she protests against it, though the violent interference with transit of Federal is discountenanced; that the vindication of her rights be left to time and reason, and that a convention, under existing circumstances, is inexpedient.

[Bigun]

I had a dim memory of this old thread when I posted my earlier responses to your question and sure enough it is still here! It address the exact question you asked.

[Bigun]

Post #715 was intended for you.

[Non-Sequitur]

LOL, IF you knew who “it” was you wouldn’t have to ask that question.

It's Pearidge's alter ego.

[Non-Sequitur]

The monies spent on placating southern poverty would not be spent(wasted) in an independent South. Just wouldn't happen.

Nonsense. Southern politicians haven't changed a whit over the decades. If not for the fact that they found they could change parties and still keep their big government/big spending ways all your congressmen and senators would still be Democrats.

[Non-Sequitur]

...but the fellow who opened the doors through which they walked is none other than Mr. Lincoln and his entourage of leaders of failed socialist revolutions in Europe half a generation earlier who had left their countries one step ahead of the hangman and came here.

How exactly?

[southernsunshine]

“According the brighter lights here, owning a slave was reason to ignore all other human rights, so going with the NS-SoothingDave-Impy imperative, he too was horrible and disgusting.”

This is a perfect example of another thing which puzzles me. If you dare go into the legality, at the time, of the (abominable) institution....off with your head!!!!!

Along these lines it is curious to me that anyone would point a finger at another. You know, the old addage, “If you’re pointing a finger at someone, how many are pointing back at you?” The facts don’t change. Slavery still existed, in places, within the Union.

Then you are bombarded with how the horrible, terrible, awful, Confederacy wished to expand slavery. This too is a fact, but still doesn’t address everthing that was going on leading up to the War.

And what of all those who suffered and died?

And here we are today stuck with the federal Leviathan.