No Giuliani, No McCain

Petition Online ^ | Dec. 14, 2006 | Andrew Longman

[FarRockaway]

To: The Republican Party

I am a Christian conservative or social conservative. I am Pro-Life. I vote.

Rudy Giuliani is pro-gay, pro-gun control, and pro-abortion.

For these reasons and others, I state very firmly that I will not vote for Rudy Giuliani for President of the United States under any circumstances.

Senator John McCain has waffled on human cloning, has supported experimentation on human embryos, and has attacked prominent Christian clergy because of the, "evil influence that they exercise." John McCain has said of Pro-Life voters, on a public broadcast radio show, that they are, "otherwise intelligent people who say that that's the only issue that will determine their vote." McCain told the San Francisco Chronicle, "I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade."

For these reasons and others, I state very firmly that I will not vote for John McCain for President of the United States under any circumstances.

Sincerely,

[Star Traveler]

You said -- "You and the debunked charlatan WAlter Martin, not "Christianity", call the LDS spurious."

Check out those newspaper articles where the Roman Catholic Church, the Southern Baptists, the Presbyterians and the Methodist all say that they are non-Christians (by their definitions of the basic Christian faith).

Even a representative from the Mormon church acknowledged that they are *not recognized* as Christian. His answer was to work on it some more (but it was revealed that they clearly know that they are *not recogized* as Christian).

And look at the links provided in a prior post, just a few up from here, this morning. It will provide you with more than enough to verify Christianity's position and how the Mormons are *non-Christian*.

But, then again -- by all your comments that I've seen so far, you are not interested in knowing or acknowledging any such sources.

So, it doesn't do any good to continue to provide source after source after source and you just say -- that's just "so and so" saying that, and/or that's not enough, or he's discredited, or I don't believe that.

You're already proven to be one who wants no sources but yet -- keeps asking for sources.

For those who read and who look up these things -- they have seen beyond any question -- that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (i.e., the "Mormons") are a *non-Christian religion* and are a *cult*.

Regards,
Star Traveler

[Mojave]

Do Mormons believe they are God's with their own planet and many wives?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I'm not a Mormon. What do hysterical religious bigots believe?

[FastCoyote]

What is incredibly instructive about this thread for anyone who still might wander in, is that it shows exactly the dangers of a Romney presidency. There is the incredible amount of evasion of simple questions about doctrine - they are simply afraid to have their lunacy and crystal gazing exposed. There is also evidence of how they cull out desenters and accuse them of intolerance.

It can be quite scary stuff.

[jwalsh07]

We need a Republican who is an economic & foreign-policy conservative. This is partly why the GOP lost Congress - too much focus on social issues.

There's no evidence of that that I've seen. On the other hand I've seen plenty of evidence that folks in the middle voted for for more government, specifically in the area of free trade. This country is center right socially and center left fiscally.

Rudy is a Rockefeller Republican. And where were Rockefeller Republicans before President Reagan co-opted socially conservative democrats and fiscal conservatives? In the minority for an eternity.

Rudy's views are not socially moderate, if they were he could win easily. His views run to the extreme. While I see killing partially born full term babies as murder Rudy is just fine with that. To compound matters he pretends at being a Catholic. Now here's a problem for sure. Pro life Catholics, sadly only about half of us, will not look kindly on a presidential candidate of our religious persuasion supporting the killing of unborn babies right up until their final little toe emerges from the birth canal.

Rudy will need to finesse that and his penchant for gun grabbing if he wants to win the republican nomination. Tough job.

McCain, ototh, can finesse the social issues since his voting record is strong and will likely appeal to the republican primary electorate more than Rudy. His achilles heel is his unflinching support for victory in Iraq. Not to me , of course, but to Americas population alt large. He could finesse that however. What he can't finesse is that he's a nut. I would be very hesitant ever to pull the lever for John McCain.

I have no problem with Mitt Romneys religion but I think he's a bit milquetoast. In the age of islamofascism I would prefer more of a hrad case. Rudy and McZCain both fit that bill but I think DuncanHunter does as well. Hunter is an economic populist vis a vis trade but fiscally conservative on taxes. He's also a social conservative.

It's my opinion that social conservatives and fiscal conservatives can coexist in the Republican party especially since many are both. Anybody that says fiscal conservatives can win without the support of social conservatives is dreaming and social conservatives who think we can win without libertarian and fiscal conservatives are also dreaming.

Freepers ought to give that some thought. Social conservatives will vote for Rockefeller Republicans if they have moderate views on guns, abortion and the family unit. Likewise fiscal conservatives will vote for social conservatives who are also fiscally conservative with some assurance that they don't see the federal government as a ham fisted enforcer of morality. 10th Amendment stuff.

And now a question, what is a foreign policy conservative? Is that somebody that hunts down and kills our enemiesor somebody that advocates fortress America?

[Mojave]

Non-Christian? When do we get the attacks on Judaism?

[FastCoyote]

"Do Mormons believe they are God's with their own planet and many wives?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I'm not a Mormon. What do hysterical religious bigots believe?"

Evasion number 7!!

Whether you are a Mormon or not, you are a Mormon apologist. So again I ask the simple question:

Do Mormons believe they become God's of their own planet and get multiple wives????????????

[Mojave]

Whether you are a Mormon or not, you are a Mormon apologist.

Indeed? By your own reasoning, then you're an apologist for atheism.

[Star Traveler]

You said -- "Ah, yes, the long dead radio charlatan with the fake degree, fake ordination and fake genealogy."

Well, the continuation of that ministry, after he died -- *continues* to assert and verify that Mormonism is a *non-Christian religion* and that it is a *cult*.

That's the ministry of the Bible Answer Man (Hank Hanegraaff). He has a web site, too and a regular call-in radio show for people who want to know about the cults.

He identifies Mormonism as a *non-Christian* religion, and hence, a "Christian cult".

And even if you don't like this additional source -- there are more that have already been provided. Like I said -- you're one who keeps asking for sources and citations and yet rejects them and asks for more and then criticizes them and asks for some more.

It becomes apparent that you're denying that historic and basic Christianity denies that Mormonism is a Christian religion and therefore, it identifies the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as a *cult*.

Regards,
Star Traveler

[Mojave]

Well, the continuation of that ministry, after he died -- *continues* to assert and verify that Mormonism is a *non-Christian religion*

Between the mail fraud investigations and the internecine warfare between his successor and heirs?

[Star Traveler]

You said -- "Non-Christian? When do we get the attacks on Judaism?"

I already answered that. It keeps coming up several times over again. Jesus was a Jew and a practicing Jew. His disciples were, His other followers were. The first members of the Christian church were.

Jesus said He was the Messiah and we believe Him, according to the evidences that the Bible has provided to us.

Jesus intends to take up the mantle of prophet and King (of the Jews) in addition to be Lord over all (for the Gentiles, too) -- when He returns to Israel to rule and reign -- as He said He would.

It's the Mormons who are the *non-Christians* and who are a *cult*. That's what we've been talking about.

Regards,
Star Traveler

[Mojave]

Hank Hanegraaff had been accused of financial fraud and other criminal activities. A lawsuit was filed ("wrongful termination suit") on March 7, 1994, in Orange County Superior Court, California. The suit alleged that Hendrik (Hank) Hanegraaff, president of CRI, was guilty of numerous ethical lapses, financial theft, tax fraud, and a shocking list of other criminal activities and deceptive practices. The plaintiffs also charged CRI and its president and officers with violation of the federal racketeering act, defined as a criminal conspiracy or a "combination." Some of the details of this suit follow:

1. Brad Sparks, formerly a top researcher on the staff of CRI (from 1992-1994) and assistant to Hanegraaff, stated in the suit that Hanegraaff and his wife, Kathy, had pocketed over $750,000 in bloated "salaries and benefits." This while CRI's rank and file employees "typically earn[ed] poverty-level income of approximately $13,000 per year!"

2. Sparks, who left CRI in "good standing" in 3/94, according to a CRI exit counseling form (included as documentation in papers filed), noted that CRI enjoys non-profit organization status by the IRS, but had fraudulently used its tax exemption privileges to provide tax exempt "cover" for the Hanegraaffs' own personal, profit-making business, Memory Dynamics, Inc., a Georgia corporation, which was conducted out of the couple's home. Sparks' suit charged that the Hanegraaffs had repeatedly bled the ministry's bank accounts to feather their own nests. For example, "defendant Hanegraaffs have sought to conceal their total six figure income by the device of separating out major categories of personal expense such as the estimated $50,000 per year 'pastor's housing allowance.'" [Hanegraaff reportedly lived in a $730,000 house in an exclusive gated community in Orange County, California; CRI's board allegedly loaned Hanegraaff the $100,000 down payment.] The financial details provided by Sparks to support his lawsuit were convincingly documented. Some 14 pages of fine print were contained in the lawsuit.

3. According to Sparks, CRI even leased two automobiles for the Hanegraaffs, almost entirely for their personal use, unrelated to ministry business. One of the most unsavory charges of corruption detailed by Sparks was that CRI deceptively claimed to be a "church" merely to deceive the IRS and state taxing authorities, as well as mislead those who donated money for its activities.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cri/law.htm

[FastCoyote]

"Whether you are a Mormon or not, you are a Mormon apologist.

Indeed? By your own reasoning, then you're an apologist for atheism."

Evasion number 8

Apparently if an atheist says 2 + 2 = 4, and they learned that from a nun, I would be an apologist for an atheist if I believed him. That is so silly as to be beneath the level of laughable.

Since you have not answered my question, after 8 requests, I must conclude you are but a provocateur, a prevaricator and/or an idiot. I think these terms are not mutually exclusive.

You have learned nothing from the information provided, you are willfully ignorant. That puts you in a class below the denizens of the psych wards, who are at least attempting comprehension.

[Star Traveler]

You said -- "Between the mail fraud investigations and the internecine warfare between his successor and heirs?"

Now you're getting hilarious. I can see the pattern developing. It reminds me of the Democrats when they say they want to impeach Bush, and they give all the "impeachment offenses" that Bush has committed.

Yep, you're sounding exactly like the Democrats (in their "political world" as compared to this in the "religious world"), when refusing to recognize what basic and historic Christianity says about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints being a *non-Christian religion*, and therefore, in the Christian terminology -- a *cult*.

Regards,
Star Traveler

P.S. -- Don't worry..., there are another 100 sources (and more likely thousands) for the Christians showing where Mormonism is a *non-Christian religion* and a *cult*.

I would say that it's time that you go through them, but it's apparent that the truth of the matter from Christian sources is exactly what you'll deny time and time again.

[Mojave]

"God Isn't Worthy Of Worship If He Kills Innocent Children."--Kyle Gerkin, the atheist who's opinion you're touting

He was taught that by a Nun?

[Mojave]

there are another 100 sources (and more likely thousands) for the Christians showing where Mormonism is a *non-Christian religion* and a *cult*.

Uncited, naturally.

[FastCoyote]

""God Isn't Worthy Of Worship If He Kills Innocent Children."--Kyle Gerkin, the atheist who's opinion you're touting

He was taught that by a Nun?"

Pathetic.

[JCEccles]

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father, that he truly and actually lived a sinless life on this earth over 2,000 years ago, that he was crucified and resurrected in glory on the third day, that he presently reigns at the right hand of God, and that he will return to this earth to rule for 1,000 years. They believe his is the only name given under Heaven whereby man my be saved. They rejoice in this truth and knowledge and praise God for His goodness and wisdom.

It's that simple. Read the Gospel and epistles of John. Don't make it more complicated.

[FastCoyote]

Mojave is obviously playing with us. Willful ignorance is so unbecoming.

But to you, I wish you a good afternoon. Keep your sources, we'll need them again! I'm outta here :)

[Star Traveler]

You referenced the following web site and their page --

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cri/law.ht

Now, I'm willing to take that information as valid -- as long as you accepted *that very same web site* for their information on Mormonism being *non-Christian*.

Are you willing to accept that same web site's characterization of the *non-Christian* nature of Mormonism?

See --
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm

You can see that they've "classified" Mormonism in the *cult* position by their link. Read it to see how they verify that they are a *cult*.

"Many today are under the false impression that Mormonism is merely another Christian denomination, when in actuality, Mormon beliefs are not only unbiblical, but anti-Christian. Below are the highlights of what Mormons believe concerning their source of authority, the Trinity, God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, sin, salvation, and heaven and hell:"

More below...

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Mormonism

Christian* or Cult?#

Mormonism, known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (with headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah -- a state that is now 70% Mormon), was officially founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith Jr. (1805-1844). Smith claimed to have had a personal visit from God the Father at the age of 15, who introduced him to Christ.1 Jesus then supposedly told him not to join any church because they were all wrong and all the Christian church's doctrines "were an abomination" (Joseph Smith -- History 19, Pearl of Great Price). After Smith's murder in 1844, Brigham Young took the cult to Utah, where there is now a major University named after him, and the number of Mormons exceed one million. The Mormon Church currently claims about 11 million baptized members worldwide (5.2 million U.S., ranking it 5th among the largest 25 U.S. denominations), up from about 2.5 million in 1970. 1970. Over the last decade, nearly 300,000 individuals over the age of eight have joined the Mormon Church every year. Membership is expected to grow to over 23 million over the next two decades. It is growing fastest in Latin America and Asia. Official publications include Church News, a weekly 16-page newspaper, and the Ensign, a monthly magazine.

The Mormon Church collects at least $6 billion a year from its members, and generates at least another $5 billion in sales from its various business enterprises; total church assets exceed $30 billion. (At least 100 companies are controlled by the Mormon Church, and some estimate its total annual revenues in excess of $20 billion! The church also owns 18 radio stations in the U.S.) Part of the Church's income goes to operate an elaborate internal welfare system so its members avoid any governmental assistance. The Mormon Church also has a 58,000-plus missionary force working in more than 160 nations in 102 languages. The Church's Provo, Utah, 26-acre Missionary Training Center receives 500 new missionaries a week into its 3-9 week intensive missionary training program. (All boys, once they turn 19, are expected to dedicate two years of their lives to missionary service.) Fielding missionaries is a $500 million per year effort and currently reaps more than 300,000 new converts each year. Nevertheless, only about 46% of Mormons attend a church meeting at least once a month. (The clean-cut image that Mormons have attained has been a major factor in the attractiveness of the Mormon Church to outsiders. They are forbidden to drink coffee, tea, and alcoholic beverages, and use tobacco products.)

The Mormon church (LDS) is organized so that one prophet leads the church. Beneath the prophet in authority is the Council of the Twelve Apostles. A third group of men are called the First and Second Councils of the Seventy. All of these men together are called the General Authorities. Local churches are called Wards or Stake Centers and meet for worship in what the Mormons call "meetinghouses." The Temples are not for worship, but are used for ceremonies for the living and the dead. Less than ten percent of all LDS members are allowed to enter these structures.

As of year-end 2002, there were 114 operating temples of Mormondom worldwide, with another 14 under construction or approved (albeit less elaborate than the 50 temples in existence at the end of 1997). (Approximately 65,000 members must be in an immediate area to qualify for a temple.) Temples are required for Mormon marriages and for proxy baptisms of ancestors. Most people assume Mormon temples are places of worship. This is not true. Only secret, occult rituals for the living and the dead are performed there, and Mormons think they must perform them to have eternal life. It is tragic that over eleven million Mormons think they need secret handshakes, oaths, incantations, and rituals, which originated in occultic Scottish Rite Freemasonry, in order to be with God in heaven! (In the final years of Joseph Smith Jr.'s life, he became a "worshipful master" in the Masonic Lodge.)

Many today are under the false impression that Mormonism is merely another Christian denomination, when in actuality, Mormon beliefs are not only unbiblical, but anti-Christian. Below are the highlights of what Mormons believe concerning their source of authority, the Trinity, God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, sin, salvation, and heaven and hell:

1. Source of Authority. Mormonism teaches that the canon of Scripture was not closed when the Bible was completed. They have three sources in addition to the Bible, all of which they believe contain God's revelations -- the Book of Mormon 2 (changed in more than 4,000 places since 1830), Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. However, Mormons follow the teachings of these three books even when they contradict the Bible. For example, Mormonism teaches that the Bible is the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly." Then whenever a Mormon belief contradicts Scripture, the Mormons say that particular part of Scripture is translated incorrectly, and that the correct translation is in one of the Mormon scriptures (The Maze of Mormonism, p. 131). Thereby, the Bible is rejected as the infallible Word of God. [e.g. "The Bible is considered usable, but suspect due to its many errors and missing parts" (Articles of Faith No. 8, Ensign, January 1989, pp. 25, 27).

2. Trinity. Mormonism teaches polytheism (versus monotheism taught in the Bible), believing that the universe is inhabited by many gods who produce spirit children. Joseph Smith declared, "I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370). Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie spoke about the Godhead in this way, "Plurality of Gods: Three separate personages: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577).

3. God. In Mormon theology, the god of our planet is believed to have once been a man on another planet, who through self-effort and the help of his own father-god, was appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth, and now has a physical, resurrected, glorified body. Mormonism teaches that through the atonement of Christ and by their good deeds and "holy" living, men can one day become gods, and with their multiplicity of "goddess wives," populate their own planets. (This is what the celestial marriage and the Mormon temple vows are all about.) Mormon theology, therefore, humanizes God and deifies man.3

4. Christ. Mormonism acknowledges the divinity of Christ, but as noted above, Mormon doctrine on what constitutes divinity falls seriously short of the Biblical standard. Mormonism teaches that Jesus, Lucifer, and all the demons, as well as all mankind, are actually all spirit brothers and sisters, born in the spirit world as spirit babies to our man-god Heavenly Father and his goddess wives. Mormon leaders have consistently taught that God the Father ("Adam-god") had sexual relations on earth with Mary (his own spirit daughter), to produce the physical body of Jesus. Early Mormon apostles also asserted that Christ was a polygamist, and that His wives included Mary and Martha (the sisters of Lazarus) and Mary Magdalene.4

5. Holy Spirit. In Mormonism, a distinction is drawn between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. As LDS Apostle Marion G. Romney stated: "The Holy Ghost is a person, a spirit, the third member of the Godhead" (Ensign, May 1977, pp. 43-44). The sixth LDS prophet, Joseph F. Smith, explains that the Holy Spirit is not a person but rather an impersonal force: "You may call it the Spirit of God, you may call it the influence of God's intelligence, you may call it the substance of his power; no matter what it is called, it is the spirit of intelligence that permeates the universe" (Mormon Doctrine, McConkie, pp. 752-753).

6. Sin. In Mormon theology, it is not quite clear how the first humans, Adam and Eve, came to live on this earth and received bodies, but somehow they did and began the process of human procreation, whereby bodies are produced for their spirit children. But at the very beginning of the process of human generation, sin entered necessarily. The earthly bodies of Adam and Eve were intended to be immortal tabernacles for their spirits, "but it was necessary for them to possess through mortality and be redeemed through the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ that the fullness of life might come." Therefore, they disobeyed God's commands. Since the fall of man was necessary, it became necessary for men to disobey God in order to do His will. Adam's fall, thereby, was a fall "upward."5 Concerning the transmission of sin to Adam's posterity, Mormons take a negative position -- they believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. Having rejected the doctrine of the imputation of the guilt of sin, Latter-Day Saints likewise repudiate the transmission of inherent corruption or original sin.

7. Salvation. Mormon theology teaches that the atonement of Christ was essential to our salvation and eternal life with God, but that it is not sufficient. Christ's shed blood on the cross provides for universal resurrection of all people, but does not pay for personal sins; according to Mormonism, only Christ's blood shed in the Garden of Gethsemane atones for personal sin. Besides faith in Christ, complete and permanent repentance of all sin as well as many good works are required.6 Mormonism also teaches that one must be baptized in water to be saved (baptismal regeneration), and that salvation will also be available in the next world for those "missing-out" in this one. Therefore, Mormons avidly pursue genealogy and practice baptism for the dead.7

8. Heaven and Hell. Mormonism teaches that there are three degrees of glory: Celestial (for good Mormons able to cease sinning in this lifetime -- see endnote #6 below), Terrestrial (for good people who do not comply with all the teachings of Mormonism), and Telestial (for those who have lived unclean earthly lives). (See also Mormon Doctrines, p. 348.) Mormonism teaches that there is a hell, but only for the "sons of perdition," a very small number of souls that cannot be redeemed. According to Mormonism, then, the vast majority of mankind will be "saved," though it should be obvious that no one will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. [Blacks used to be totally out of the equation: "Black people are black because of their misdeeds in the pre-existence" (Three Degrees of Glory, LDS Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, p. 21); "The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is nothing compared with that greater handicap. He is not permitted to receive the priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (Elder George E. Richards). In 1978, however, the Mormon Church announced that God had lifted his curse from the African race.]

9. Temple Rituals. A typical temple ceremony would take place as follows: "The ritual began in a small cubicle where we had to strip completely. We then put on 'the shield,' a poncho with a hole for the head, but open on the sides (similar to a hospital gown). We went through a series of 'washings and anointings,' as various parts of our bodies were touched by elderly temple workers who mumbled appropriate incantations over them. Our Mormon underwear, 'the garments,' are said to have powers to protect us from 'the evil one.' It had occult markings, which were so 'sacred' that we were instructed to burn them when the garments wore out. The endowment ceremony mocked all doctrines held to by Biblical Christianity, and Christian pastors were portrayed as servants of Satan. We had to swear many blood oaths, promising we would forfeit our lives if we weren't faithful, or if we revealed any of the secrets revealed to us in the temple ceremonies. We were made to pretend by grotesque gestures to cut our throats, chests, and abdomens, indicating how we would lose our lives. We were never told who would kill us! The inference was, and history testifies to, that it would be the Mormon priesthood." (Testimony of a former Mormon.) [Note: The blood oaths and portrayal of Christian pastors were removed in April of 1990, despite the fact that the ordinance was purported to have been given originally by a revelation and was never to be changed.]

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There is more, but that is enough...

I'm glad you found that web site which provides the *exact reference* about Mormonism being a *non-Christian* religion.

Regards,
Star Traveler

[Mojave]

"CRI President Hank Hanegraaff's Salary Now Cracks $250,000"

"The Christian Sentinel Advises Christians to NOT contribute to the Christian Research Institute."

http://www.cultlink.com/news/june_2003_sentinel_eupdate.htm