Posted on 05/29/2006 6:03:36 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
A leading British scientist said yesterday that he had given up trying to persuade creationists that Darwin's theory is correct after repeatedly being misrepresented and, he said, branded a liar.
Speaking at the Guardian Hay festival at Hay-on-Wye, the evolutionary biologist Steve Jones spoke of his frustrations when trying to debate with religious opponents.
"I don't engage with creationists directly," he said, saying that, when he had, they had frequently quoted him out of context or accused him of lying. "If somebody has decided to believe something - whatever the evidence - then there is nothing you can do about it."
[Snip]
The most important difference between evolutionists and creationists, Prof Jones concluded, is that scientists are always prepared to say, "I don't know".
"If there weren't any unknown parts of evolution, bits we don't understand, it wouldn't be a science," he said, "That's one thing that believers never say, because it's all written down in a big book."
In 1997, Prof Jones was awarded the Royal Society's Michael Faraday prize, the UK's foremost award for communicating science to the public.
(Excerpt) Read more at books.guardian.co.uk ...
Y quiero Taqqiya Bell?
Cheers!
<< A high percentage of the time where that one rears it's ugly head you can be sure the person putting it forward as a serious argument is simply regurgitating talking points from a creationist website and has no real understanding of the application of thermodynamics in an open system far from equilibrium, nor an understanding of chloroplasts and ATP. >>
Yep. Actually -- back in the late 60s -- I was a Physics major. I consider it a mistake that I switched to history after two years -- but I do love history.
But even with what little Physics I did get -- while I was a creationist, I always cringed when that argument was brought up, because even I knew it was bogus.
"You're the devil! You're the great Satan!"
"Darn, what gave me away this time?"
Takes one to know one! LOL! On another thread I was just compared to the demon "Screwtape" in the C. S. Lewis book, *The Screwtape Letters." Screwtape was a higher-up demon writing letters to his underling on how to undermine the faith of a new Christian.
I made the mistake -- as a former YEC of 20 years -- of explaining the motive behind so much unreasonable opposition to evolution. I said it was basically fear -- and for that, I earned my demon's wings.
But -- as I am sure is true of you, too -- I have earned many merit badges from the creationists: my Nazi arm-band, my communist hammer-and-sickle, and my membership ring in the vast left-wing conspiracy, just to name a few. The number of different names they have called us is a real testament to their incredible creativity -- and abysmal ignorance.
<< Yes. I have gone from being a young-earth creationist Christian to being a supporter of Darwin's theory as a result of these threads, and through further thought I have become an atheist. >>
In eight months? How long were you a YEC Christian? And what is it that convinced you? I am not really interested in the "atheist" part, just the evolution part. What did you study? What were the most persuasive arguments you read? Have you "come out" with your YEC friends -- or your -- I presume -- "former" Christian mates?
I have my own story along these lines, so I am interested in yours.
I would be interested too. The YEC belief has to oppose just about all of science, so it must be a very schizophrenic effort.
Coyote
(FRmail me if you don't want to go into too much detail here.)
<< I would be interested too. The YEC belief has to oppose just about all of science, so it must be a very schizophrenic effort. >>
It IS! But you have to understand the milieu of the YEC. They live in a bubble. Everyone they know well thinks almost exactly the same way they do. Everyone they are close to and WANT to be close to agrees with them about the evils of that Great Satan -- Darwin -- and his minions... us. They know almost nothing else.
To them -- it's all a part of the great battle that has raged throughout history between God and Satan. They are the Holy Warriors for the Lord, and we are the infidels who need to be conquered. If they can't directly harm US, they have to inoculate and insulate everyone in the group from influence from us.
So -- they would like to have no evolution in the schools at all. Barring that, they push for "inclusion" of "creation science" as a balance. Since that was shot down by the courts, most of them are now turning, in desperation, to ID as their Trojan Horse.
But at all costs -- we must be fought. We are evil. We are intent on harming the faith of the chosen, and shipwrecking them. Our motives are suspect as much as our facts. We cannot be trusted to tell the truth about our great conspiracy, so everything we say about science is part of the big lie. This is how we see so many outrageous accusations made against our character and motives. All's fair in a holy war!
And worst of all -- the great crusade against evolution entails making themselves enemies of ALL of science, because there are just so many other elements of science that dove-tail with evolution -- everything from cosmology to astronomy to abiogenesis to physics to chemistry to geology to plate tectonics to genetics -- and on and on and on.
Everywhere they turn they are "under attack" from all these enemies. Everywhere they look their "faith" is assaulted by all these "lies" of the "evolutionists" and their "evolutionary assumptions" in all these sciences. So they see US as religious zealots, because that is what they are, and they cannot conceive of anything different.
They see US on an unholy crusade in opposition to their holy one. They see Darwin as OUR high priest, and the *Origin* as OUR scripture. I am sure you have heard endless arguments that evolution and creationism are both just faith claims -- both religious beliefs.
The fear is palpable on the "inside." The fear that something -- anything -- will get through a chink in the armor. And if something does get through, there is the great fear that this one little thing will fester and grow and, like a cancer, spread and destroy. Then the formerly faithful "warrior for Christ" becomes a "throwaway" -- a "fallen from grace" person with no more hope -- fit for nothing but condemnation.
It's a mindset that is all-encompassing, and they know no other. It takes over every aspect of their thinking. So -- yes -- it can be quite schizophrenic, in its own way.
Looking back on my twenty years as a YEC -- I am utterly amazed at my fooolishness. And everyone thought of me as SOOOOOO smart. Make no mistake -- plenty of them ARE quite smart. Sure -- we see a lot of incredibly stupid arguments in here -- but some of them are quite sophisticated in their arguments elsewhere.
It's not about intelligence. It's about fear, and identity, and intentional ignorance. It's almost impossible for them to see any other way to be. Escaping that mindset was -- for me -- like being deprogrammed.
Just yesterday, on another thread, I made some shorter comments along these lines, and in return I was compared to a demon in a book by C. S. Lewis -- a demon teaching an underling how to undermine the faith of a new believer.
That poster still does not understand how doing that exactly confirmed everything I just said.
I don't agree with the young earth creationist as well, however, creation according to the Bible I discovered for me, after years of accepting Darwin made more sense. For a balance between the hard core young Earth creationist and the atheist viewpoint.....try reading Hugh Ross, "The Fingerprint of God", and other works by him. This is what set me on track.
"By further reflecting that the clearest evidence would be requisite to make any sane man believe in the miracles by which Christianity is supported,—and that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracles become,—that the men at that time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible by us,—that the Gospels cannot be proven to have been written simultaneously with the events,—that they differ in many important details, far too important, as it seemed to me to be admitted as the usual inaccuracies of eye witnesses;—by such reflections as these, which I give not as having the least novelty or value, but as they influenced me, I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation. The fact that many fake religions have spread over large portions of the earth like wildfire had some weight with me. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans, and manuscripts being discovered at Pompeii or elsewhere, which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."
( Charles Darwin in his Autobiography of Charles Darwin, Dover Publications, 1992, p. 62. )
Charles Darwin (1809-1882)
"I think that generally (& more & more as I grow older), but not always, that an agnostic would be the most correct description of my state of mind."
( Quoted from Adrian Desmond and James Moore, Darwin: The Life of a Tormented Evolutionist, New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1991, p. 636. )
After the first two, the rest have backedtracked on what THEY said!
Ah... sixteen: the great "I know it all" years!
How long was your hiatus between the "I know it all" years and the "Now I REALLY know it all" years?
"Who cares! You are wrong!"
--EvoDude
And if dolphins are so smart, why do they live in igloos?
I think that's what the Grand Inquisitor asked the Moors before he tortured and forcibly converted them.
Kudos for escaping the "YEC trap".
One once posted to me a mildly pornographic account of my meeting with Satan. Interesting how they know these things.
LOL!
Don't forget that, as of post 187, we're also LSD trippers...
Like, far out, man!
And you're another data point in favor of the Salem hypothesis! Congratulations!
Salem hypothesis: in any Evolution vs. Creation debate, a person who claims scientific credentials and sides with Creation will most likely have an Engineering degree.
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