Gay Parents Line Up For White House Easter Egg Roll Tickets

No, thanks. I stop into some threads occasionally, but I'm not so fascinated by the subject as those who keep a list.

So, you can stand athwart history, or you can accept the march of time and look to build the best future possible.

Your advice, I take it, is "sit back and enjoy it"? Sorry, that advice does not and will never work.

Ideas have consequences, and, despite some conservative rumbling against ivory tower professors, the fact is that the ivory tower is the control tower of society. The high rates of illegitimacy, veneral disease, divorce, and myriad other abuses are the result of immoral actions of millions of people, whose values are derived from the overall culture. One may decry, say, "Sex in the City" or similar entertainment, as well as "values neutral" public schools and weak parents, as the immediate cause of these immoral acts. However, the origins of the values espoused by such entertainment,education, and parenting can be traced to worldviews that were many decades old even when Haight-Ashbury was the center of the hippie culture.

Some of these writers and philosophies have been mentioned previously, such as John Dewey, William James, Karl Marx, and Herbert Marcuse as writers, and positivism, Marxism, and secular humanism, as philosophies or worldviews. In their turn, these writers drew upon earlier philosophers like Hegel and Kant, Rousseau and Voltaire, who were products of the German and French Enlightenments (or as Joe Morecraft, a Presbyterian theologian, would say, the Endarkenment).

This is ultimately a war of ideas and not only of flesh and blood. They have the upper hand because they held control of the "ivory tower" of academia. They will be defeated, humanly speaking, by effectively challenging those ideas.

In an earlier post, you stated that cause and effect cannot be distinguished. This would fly in the face of logic: A is A; A is not non-A.

With respect to woman's liberation and sexual liberation, both are effects generated by radical egalitarianism. While there has been some linkage in recent years between the two, many early feminists, such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton, were far from champions of sexual freedom, as in the case of her opposition to abortion. OTOH, many leaders of the sexual revolution were men who were also misogynists, such as Alfred Kinsey, Hugh Hefner, and Alan Ginsburg. Your claim that the two movements are intertwined is incorrect.

The various movements and philosophies we have discussed, such as secular humanism, sexual liberation, and so forth, are not part of Western civilization. Rather, they are all profoundly anti-Western civilization. The very decay in public behavior, deportment, and moral standards that have been increasingly evident in the last few decades is proof that these movements and philosophies are destructive to civilization, Western or any other.

Hundreds of gay and lesbian parents hoping to take their families

So they'll be bringing their brothers and sisters?

Their parents?

In-laws?

What "family" are they talking about?

And another aspect of this, does anyone doubt that the fruits and nuts are going to turn this into a protest?

we just want to be accepted as normal.

This will NEVER happen as what they do is is not "normal."

Your advice, I take it, is "sit back and enjoy it"? Sorry, that advice does not and will never work.

No, hardly. My advice is that you find the serenity to accept the things you cannot change; the courage to change the things you can; and the wisdom to know the difference. I think I frame that in a way you might approve. ;^)

The high rates of illegitimacy, veneral disease, divorce, and myriad other abuses are the result of immoral actions of millions of people, whose values are derived from the overall culture.

High rates of illegitimacy are hardly novel. For instance, some 38% of births in 18th Century New England were illegitimate. You must be looking through that rose-color prism again. Venereal disease is by no stretch of the imagination novel. Christendom was seething with it throughout the Ancient, Medieval, and Early Modern Eras. Divorce is more complex, but there is no doubt that it is intimately connected with women's liberation (which is a point I've been making about much of this all along).

However, the origins of the values espoused by such entertainment,education, and parenting can be traced to worldviews that were many decades old even when Haight-Ashbury was the center of the hippie culture.

They were centuries, if not millennia, old by then. I detect that rose-color prism again.

This is ultimately a war of ideas and not only of flesh and blood. They have the upper hand because they held control of the "ivory tower" of academia.

They have the upper hand because their ideas are more consistent with modernity as it's developed to date, and in particular more consistent with democratic human rights and technological advancement.

In an earlier post, you stated that cause and effect cannot be distinguished. This would fly in the face of logic: A is A; A is not non-A.

We are not talking about A. We are talking about ->L->M->N->O->P-> or something like that.

With respect to woman's liberation and sexual liberation, both are effects generated by radical egalitarianism.

Absolutely.

Your claim that the two movements are intertwined is incorrect.

Your counterclaim is incorrect.

The various movements and philosophies we have discussed, such as secular humanism, sexual liberation, and so forth, are not part of Western civilization.

Your claim here is ridiculous and delusional.

Rather, they are all profoundly anti-Western civilization.

This claim is arbitrary and nonsensical.

I doubt that I'm inclined to carry this discussion on any further, as we've already veered way off-track, so let me leave you with this bit of wisdom from Ayn Rand: You can defy reality, but you cannot defy the consequences of defying reality.

Take care!

"The point that I am making is a simple one: In the grand sweep of history, 'sexual liberation' and 'women's liberation' go hand in hand. If you can figure out a way to parse and divorce the two, then be my guest."

they have been connected historically. One way to keep male dominance is by controlling every aspect of women being able to do equal things, including expressing sexuality. You can see this today in Islam.

One problem with the way things have come off in the West is that when correcting injustice we have a tendency to accept the pendulum swinging in the other direction - we don't just correct injustice we give extra rights and and powers and create a new kind of injustice - but the new victims don't like it any better than the old victims.

We didn't kill two hateful military empires in World War II only to lose our own country to a homosexual cabal -- but that is what is going on. ...... My grandfather would have eaten rat poison rather than see the country debauched by the gays. ...... Or is that "just noise" to you?

Excellent post.............. there are too many weak-kneed folks on this subject........... and on many more subjects.

[Me] And the status of women in society implies nothing about homosexuality or homosexual politics.

[You] Nonsense.

Prove it.

I'm unsure what you're correcting, except it's certainly not me, since I didn't say anything that would contradict what you replied with in "correction".. Did you fantasize that I said something I didn't? If so, you'll have to clarify what that was before I can guess what you're getting at.

I quoted you precisely in the post you object to. Again,

If you want to blame something, blame the fact that Hebrew shepherds and Stoic Hellenes several thousand years ago put together a patriarchal religious system totally inimical to women's liberation.

You implied the Hebrews and Greeks coauthored a patriarchal religious system, minimizing their differences. They had wildly different religions that grew up in isolation from one another, but in a common contact with other religious traditions of the region.

The Greeks exchanged material and concepts with their neighbors; the Hebrews mostly reacted against them -- but accepted influences from Egypt and Persia, their most prestigious neighbors, while rejecting others. Lesbianism, a "practice of Egypt," was rejected as such by the scholarly authority of Maimonides, and all homosexuality (not just women's) was condemned by him and the rabbinate as "rebellion" (against God).

Those strictures had nothing to do with the status of women, as women, in Judaism. They were not a "black code" for females, but the sexual equivalent of sumptuary laws, defined by function and not by gender.

Likewise, gender distinctions in Greek religion don't prove anything about women's social position. The cults were not totally integrated and the Greek religion was neither monolithic nor even exclusively Greek, being syncretic from the beginning. Hercules Melicertes, for example, was none other than the Phoenician Melqart, and the Goddess, "Potnia" in the Mycenaean tablets, continued to be worshipped throughout antiquity (and arguably down to the present).

OK. How can someone cite Ayn Rand's observation on the effects of defying reality yet take issue with a fundamental principle of hers, that you cannot redefine reality by saying, as you have, that cause and effect are indistinguishable?

Prove it.

Since my view is consistent with the consensus of scholars, and yours isn't, that's good enough for me. It is the contrarian position that requires proving, so far as I'm concerned (hint: that's yours).

You implied the Hebrews and Greeks coauthored a patriarchal religious system, minimizing their differences.

The Greeks I was referring to were early Christians, so I suppose that was the source of the confusion. I was also elliptically referring to Hellenistic Jews who adopted certain Greek philosophies (e.g., Paul). I apologize for my confusing choice of terminology. It was unnecessary and ill-considered.

Now, having cleared that up, the rest of your exposition is moot, and I don't disagree with that in any material way.

I have certainly not said that cause and effect are indistinguishable. What I have said is that most causes are the effect of preceding causes, and many effects subsequently cause additional effects.

" We didn't kill two hateful military empires in World War II only to lose our own country to a homosexual cabal -- but that is what is going on.

My grandfather would have eaten rat poison rather than see the country debauched by the gays.

Or is that "just noise" to you?"

First, respect for your Grandfather's memory, may he rest in peace. And honor for him if he helped defend the country.

And I oppose legalizing marriage between two men or two women.

But to kill one's self because you don't like a sin that someone is committing or because they want to be treated normal or better than normal is completely counterproductive.
Lots of people want to be treated better than normal and we shouldn't be afraid to tell them "no."

When people want special rights because of their orientation or their color or their religion or their gender or their behavior or anything else we should reject that.

But going the next step and denying them equal rights puts us in the wrong too. Take the gay couples and the White House egg hunt... if they want special privileges for being gay then hell no. if they want the same thing as everybody else - then yes, they should have that.

Do we test other egg hunt attendees for sin and reject sinners from the white House? If so then its fair to ban practicing homosexuals.

Since my view is consistent with the consensus of scholars

Name some. References, please.

Now, having cleared that up, the rest of your exposition is moot, and I don't disagree with that in any material way.

Except insofar as you argued that Judeo-Christian tradition and its antecedents are inimical to "women's liberation," and that "women's liberation" implies "gay rights."

You still haven't made your case.

Why don't you just say instead, that you are gratified by any moral and social decomposition in Western Civilization that allows gays to run amok?

Here's a collection of bibliographies from the relevant sections of my research. This list is not exhaustive, and it's also not exclusive. It's also out-of-date. A number of the works won't be relevant, but I don't have time to parse this for you. The answers are in there. Have fun!!

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Fitzgerald, Matthew. Sex-Ploytation: How Women Use Their Bodies To Extort Money From Men. Willowbrook, Illinois: April House Publishing, 1999.

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McElroy, Wendy. Sexual Correctness: The Gender-Feminist Attack On Women. Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland, 1996.

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____________. Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe. New York: Villiard Books, 1994.

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PS. And, to be sure, I do not endorse every work listed above. Quite to the contrary, a number of them I argue against, in some cases quite strongly. There will also be some number that I consulted but didn't find worth incorporating. I am nothing if not comprehesive in my research. :)

Also, there are probably a few duplicates, since those are bibliographies from different sections of multiple works, and I've definitely used some sources more than once. That shouldn't be much of a bother, though, and I excerpted those lists from my 'master lists' (in my personal index system) which should minimize duplicates.

I am a historian of sex and gender, BTW, among other things.

The authorities seem to be organized by er, um, topic. Maybe you should give the poor chap a hint as to which cohort pertains to the topic about the role of women outside the home. :) Do you agree that fags facilitate the future failure of fragile family constructs causing civilizational collapse?

One last thing: The ultimate question that has intrigued me, for the past decade, is why people have sex with whomever they have sex. That seems like such a simple question, doesn't it? It's not..

Do you agree that fags facilitate the future failure of fragile family constructs causing civilizational collapse?

Hmm.. My personal view, with an extremely high degree of confidence, is that modern civilization will endure far longer than I will, and as you know my objective is to be around for a very long time. ;^)

Oddly enough, prosperity seems to be a far greater threat to fertility than fags are ever likely to be..

I figure if the Greeks and Romans could manage to string along a civilization for a couple of millennia, all things considered, we're a long way from dissolution.

I am a historian of sex and gender, BTW, among other things.

So now you're taking the whole thread private. You're a specialist, an expert, and everybody else can just go play with themselves. You own the issues here.

Is that about right?