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Why intelligent design will change everything
WorldNetDaily ^ | March 25, 2006 | Lynn Barton

Posted on 03/29/2006 7:53:52 PM PST by SampleMan

Last year, the intelligent design movement burst onto the national scene, causing all manner of outrage from the guardians of science and right thinking. All the major media covered this upstart idea challenging Darwinian evolution's theory of the origin of life. Everybody has been piling on, even conservative pundits like George Will and Charles Krauthammer. The cultural elites were appalled when the yahoos on the Kansas Board of Education voted to "teach the controversy" to high-school students. In Dover, Pa., a judge outlawed the mere mention of I.D. theory in school science classes. Like a fierce game of whack-a-mole, wherever I.D.'s politically incorrect head pops up, its opponents rush to smack it back down.

I am enjoying all this tremendously. What makes it so much fun to watch is that so far not one of the critics understands it. Without exception, they simply dismiss I.D. theory as nothing more than stealth religion – creationism by another name. They say that all I.D. does is insert God to explain what science has not yet figured out. While they all lose their collective minds about it, warning darkly that the fundamentalists are coming, support for I.D. theory will continue to grow because it is good science. I want to explain why, so that when you hear the intelligentsia loudly denouncing it, you, too, can have a good laugh. Even better, you will understand why intelligent design theory is going to become a major force for good in the battle to rescue our collapsing culture – because the way we think about origins affects the way we think about nearly everything. (More on that later.)

Meanwhile, the debate rages on, all the while opponents keep insisting there is no debate.

Despite its pretensions to objectivity, science has always been political. That's why scientific revolutions have often met initially with resistance and ridicule, because the old order stands to lose if the new becomes accepted. But the great thing about science is that eventually the weight of evidence breaks through. Think Galileo (opposed not only by the church but by fellow academics), or Lister (ridiculed for disinfecting surgical rooms to prevent infection), or the Wright Brothers (man will never fly). So all this hand wringing about intelligent design is a good sign that the revolution is under way. The old order is being challenged, and they are freaking out.

I.D. not religion

First, what I.D. theory is not: It is not creationism. Full disclosure here: I am a creationist. As a Christian, I believe God is the author of life. But I.D. theory is a science-driven enterprise. It is not a deduction from Scripture but an inference from observation. It says that the intricate design found in living things and in the universe itself is best explained by an intelligent cause. Darwinism, on the other hand, says that undirected natural processes led life to arise spontaneously; then evolution by natural selection (survival of the fittest) resulted in living things that appear to be designed, but really aren't. The question boils down to this: When considered objectively, where does the evidence actually lead?

Drawing heavily on Nancy Pearcey's great apologetic book "Total Truth," I'm going to focus on two of the most powerful arguments for intelligent design. Her book contains many more. I wish every Christian (and every thinking person) would read her masterful defense of Christianity as total truth about all of reality. But just reading this column will make you far more knowledgeable about I.D. than nearly all of its opponents.

It's true that by far the dominant theory of origins is the evolutionary one. It goes something like this: It all began billions of years ago in some sort of chemical soup (a "warm little pond," as Darwin put it) which, when zapped with an energy source, led to the chance formation of amino acids. These acids somehow self-organized into proteins and then morphed into the first living cell. All living things descended from that first cell, evolving from simple into increasingly complex organisms, all the way up to man.

Just one problem

In Darwin's time this was easier to imagine, because it was thought that cells were mere blobs of protoplasm. It fit in nicely with his idea that life could have first appeared as a simple cell. There's just one problem. We now know that there is no such thing as a "simple" cell. Recent advances in microbiology have demonstrated that the cell is literally a miniature factory town, with its own chemical library containing blueprints that are copied and transported to molecular assembly lines that manufacture everything the cell needs. Nancy Pearcey compares it to "… a large and complex model train layout, with tracks crisscrossing everywhere, its switches and signals perfectly timed so that no trains collide and the cargo reaches its destination precisely when needed."

Just one cell is vastly more complex than anything ever created by human engineering. And your body contains 300 trillion of them, each one "knowing" exactly what it is supposed to do within itself and in relation to all the other cells.

Microbiologist Michael Behe has coined the term "irreducible complexity" to describe this. That is, the cell consists of coordinated, interlocking parts that must all be in place simultaneously, or it won't function at all. You can't improve the cell through one random mutation at a time because if you change any one aspect, the whole thing will crash. For evolutionary change to occur, every single piece of its Rube Goldberg-like factory would have to mutate at exactly the same time, and each single mutation would have to be beneficial, or the cell would just die.

Darwin himself understood what today's evolutionists refuse to admit:

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."

That is exactly what Behe has done. As Pearcey puts it:

"An aggregate structure, like a pile of sand, can be built up gradually by simply adding a piece at a time. ... By contrast, an organized structure, like the inside of a computer, is built up according to a pre-existing blueprint."

Since living systems are organized wholes, they had to have been put together in the first place by a pre-existing design.

Darwinists cannot explain irreducible complexity. They keep saying that it poses no problem for evolution, as if repetition would make it so. They insist that just because we don't yet understand how evolution can work in light of this doesn't mean that we won't figure it out eventually. But they will never figure it out, because irreducible complexity makes evolutionary change at the cellular level logically impossible.

(Note: Natural selection clearly occurs within species as an adaptive mechanism. I.D. theory does not deny or even address this, nor does it address the question of whether natural selection could lead to the development of entirely new species. I.D. theory is concerned with the origin of life only.)

Not by chance

Even more powerful evidence comes from the genetic code. DNA is a kind of language consisting of four chemical "letters" that combine into an astonishing variety of sequences to spell out a message. It contains a mind-boggling amount of information. Where did it come from?

Darwinists say that DNA resulted from chance mutations operated on by natural selection. Really? As theologian Norm Geisler quipped:

"If you came into the kitchen and saw the alphabet cereal spilled out on the table, and it spelled out your name and address, would you think the cat knocked the cereal box over?"

In fact, chance events tend to scramble information, like typos in a page of text. Even if some kind of more complex molecule somehow did appear in the supposed chemical soup, the same random processes that produced it would continue to insert "typos," soon scrambling any coherent message that might have occurred. Again, it's not that we don't yet understand how chance could create complex information; it's that in principle this cannot happen.

Nor by physical law

If chance cannot do it, perhaps some yet-undiscovered physical law can. That's what scientists excited about complexity theory are hoping. They are studying self-organizing structures like snowflakes and crystals, searching for clues to how similar natural processes might also give rise to the complex information found in DNA. But they won't find any.

That prediction stems not from ignorance or hubris, but from the nature of physical laws, which by definition are regular and repeatable. Those properties enable the brilliant engineering students at MIT to enjoy shoving a piano off seven story high Baker House roof every year. They know that gravity makes things fall, every time.

But the information found in DNA is quite different. When you decode one section it tells you nothing about what comes next. The letters are free to combine into an unimaginably vast quantity of information. By contrast, the physical laws being explored in complexity theory are simple instructions, able to create complex patterns but not much information – certainly not enough to account for the fact that each cell in your body contains more information than the entire Encyclopedia Britannica.

This is not at all like saying man will never fly because God didn't give him wings. It's not that I.D. theorists can't imagine how a physical law could create information. It's because in principle, law-like processes cannot generate complex information. Some things really are impossible.

Information, information, information

It turns out that life is not primarily about matter, but information. Commenting on the failed attempts to create life in the lab, astrophysicist Paul Davies writes:

"Trying to make life by mixing chemicals in a test tube is like soldering switches and wires in an attempt to produce Windows 98. It won't work because it addresses the problem at the wrong conceptual level."

Common sense tells us that information does not occur without an intelligence to organize it, any more than the hardware of a computer can create its own software. Even scientists know this. Otherwise, how could SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) researchers ever hope to distinguish between radio signals generated by some natural process and those sent from the hoped-for aliens? Again, we see that the most plausible explanation for the information in DNA is an Intelligent Designer put it there.

But for Christians, we knew that, didn't we? "In the beginning was the Word (Logos)." Behind everything is the Logic, the Wisdom, the Intelligence of God.

Darwin's irony: cultural devolution

Currently, only a minority of scientists holds to intelligent design theory, but the number is growing. To date, over 400 scientists have signed a document entitled "Scientific Dissent from Darwinism." Many of these scientists are not Christian, and some are outright hostile to it, which is further evidence that I.D. is not religion. A scientific revolution is just beginning, but almost nobody recognizes it, least of all its opponents.

And not a moment too soon, since evolutionary theory did not stay in the scientific realm but oozed into all the sciences, the liberal arts and out into culture, with horribly destructive results. The biblical view of man as a spiritual being created in God's image has been replaced by the view that man is nothing more than a highly evolved animal struggling to survive in a meaningless universe. Scratch any social ill and you will find Darwinism underneath.

One of the worst consequences has been the devaluation of human life. It is no exaggeration to say that Darwinism has led to the killing of untold millions of human beings. To highlight just a few examples: eugenics (philosophical Darwinism) inspired Margaret Sanger to found Planned Parenthood and the pro-abortion movement. Eugenics helped Hitler convince an entire country to follow him in his attempt to wipe out the "inferior" Jews, not to mention the toll in blood it took to stop him. These days Peter Singer, a Princeton professor of bioethics, advocates that parents be allowed to dispatch their imperfect infants up to 30 days after birth. The misguided "right to die" movement is rapidly becoming the "right to kill" movement, as last year we watched severely disabled (but not dying) Terri Schiavo starve to death by court order, while a large portion of the country approved of it. Meanwhile, more than a million babies continue to be aborted every year. None of these horrors could have occurred in a culture that understood each human life to be a unique creation of God, stamped with his image.

Darwinism is also behind the sexual revolution (just doing what comes naturally), radical feminism, family breakdown and normalization of homosexuality (gender roles are social constructs we can discard as we "evolve" as a society). Darwinism removed the foundation for a transcendent moral Truth that stands outside of our personal preference. Now we make it up as we go, "re-imagining" everything. Even many Christians consider their faith to be purely personal. It's "true for me, but maybe not for you." No wonder assertions that Jesus is the only way to God meet with such outrage. And why so-called progressives are deeply offended when Christians try to bring into the public square what they view as nothing more than our particular rabbit's foot. Rejection of God is the root cause of our cultural degradation, but Darwinism has been its indispensable support, giving intellectual cover for all the evil we want to do.

Reversing the damage

But intelligent design is on the move, and this is a great gift to everyone, especially Christians. It's only a matter of time before it becomes accepted as a legitimate competing theory of origins, and as it does it will unleash enormous changes for good, not only in science but all of culture – because if people understand that there is (or at least could be) a Designer, then we can once more ask, what is the purpose of that design? What are things for?

For example, conservatives and Christians are having a difficult time making the case against homosexual marriage. Thousands of years of exclusively heterosexual marriage mean nothing to those with a Darwinist worldview. Why, they are far more evolved than those benighted cultures in the misty past. To them, tradition is oppressive; destroying it is progress. Why shouldn't people be able to "love" whomever they want? How will it hurt your marriage?

The truth is that homosexual marriage is wrong because it violates God's design and purpose for us, with inevitably negative consequences. But for an exercise in frustration, just try to discuss design with someone steeped in the evolutionary mindset. Point out the functional biological differences between male and female, and they will dodge, deny or change the subject. Press the issue, and they will become angry at your attempt to "impose" your personal values. What they will never do is engage the substance of your argument. They can't. Their worldview will not allow them to admit the obvious.

Multiple research studies documenting the need that children have for a mom and a dad are probably the best defense we've got, but in a nation full of divorced or never married single parents, and with a media quick to promote "gay" families, it's a tough slog. So far, a majority of the public opposes homosexual marriage, but it's mostly instinctive and traditional. People say things like, "I wasn't raised that way." But younger generations, raised on books like "Heather Has Two Mommies" and subjected to Darwinist dogma throughout their schooling, have no tradition left to hold them. And any common-sense instinct they might have to resist faces an incessant cultural onslaught that brands such thoughts as hateful prejudice.

For the older generations, watching defenders of marriage viciously attacked in the press is very confusing. Having never reasoned out something so basic as marriage, they, too, will begin to doubt themselves. Unless something dramatic changes, public opposition will eventually crumble, and we will see the destruction of marriage as one more nail in the cultural coffin we are building for ourselves.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evolution; id; junkscience; pseudoscience; tinfoilhat; twaddle
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To: Filo
I didn't highlight anything, just copied and pasted. That's the way it came on M-W.

It's also an opinion that ID lacks facts. Order and complexity exist. Scientists use it, investigate it, and depend on it every day. If it weren't for the order that exists in this universe, science would be incapable of being done. I don't understand why scientists deny that it's evidence of intelligence or design and yet expect us to believe that what they do in the lab is intelligent and involves design (in the form of experiments). Surely they expect us to believe that what they're doing in the lab shows both.

41 posted on 03/29/2006 8:58:18 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Ultra Sonic 007

Ping.


42 posted on 03/29/2006 9:02:50 PM PST by reaganandme
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To: Lester Moore
Yes, this is a shameless cut & paste!


Predictions - Is Evolution Science?

Original at - http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/evo_science.html


Philosophers of science such as Popper and Kitcher say that it is. Scientists such as Mayr, Dobzhansky, and Ridley agree. Many organizations have passed resolutions to this effect. However, the important question is whether these authorities can back up what they say with evidence.

The following list gives a few of the predictions that have been made from the Theory of Evolution:

     

  • Darwin predicted that precursors to the trilobite would be found in pre-Silurian rocks. He was correct: they were subsequently found.

     

  • Similarly, Darwin predicted that Precambrian fossils would be found. He wrote in 1859 that the total absence of fossils in Precambrian rock was "inexplicable" and that the lack might "be truly urged as a valid argument" against his theory. When such fossils were found, starting in 1953, it turned out that they had been abundant all along. They were just so small that it took a microscope to see them.

     

  • There are two kinds of whales: those with teeth, and those that strain microscopic food out of seawater with baleen. It was predicted that a transitional whale must have once existed, which had both teeth and baleen. Such a fossil has since been found.

     

  • Evolution predicts that we will find fossil series.

     

  • Evolution predicts that the fossil record will show different populations of creatures at different times. For example, it predicts we will never find fossils of trilobites with fossils of dinosaurs, since their geological time-lines don't overlap. The "Cretaceous seaway" deposits in Colorado and Wyoming contain almost 90 different kinds of ammonites, but no one has ever found two different kinds of ammonite together in the same rockbed.

     

  • Evolution predicts that animals on distant islands will appear closely related to animals on the closest mainland, and that the older and more distant the island, the more distant the relationship.

     

  • Evolution predicts that features of living things will fit a hierarchical arrangement of relatedness. For example, arthropods all have chitinous exoskeleton, hemocoel, and jointed legs. Insects have all these plus head-thorax-abdomen body plan and 6 legs. Flies have all that plus two wings and halteres. Calypterate flies have all that plus a certain style of antennae, wing veins, and sutures on the face and back. You will never find the distinguishing features of calypterate flies on a non-fly, much less on a non-insect or non-arthropod.

     

  • Evolution predicts that simple, valuable features will evolve independently, and that when they do, they will most likely have differences not relevant to function. For example, the eyes of molluscs, arthropods, and vertebrates are extremely different, and ears can appear on any of at least ten different locations on different insects.

     

  • In 1837, a Creationist reported that during a pig's fetal development, part of the incipient jawbone detaches and becomes the little bones of the middle ear. After Evolution was invented, it was predicted that there would be a transitional fossil, of a reptile with a spare jaw joint right near its ear. A whole series of such fossils has since been found - the cynodont therapsids.

     

  • It was predicted that humans must have an intermaxillary bone, since other mammals do. The adult human skull consists of bones that have fused together, so you can't tell one way or the other in an adult. An examination of human embryonic development showed that an intermaxillary bone is one of the things that fuses to become your upper jaw.

     

  • From my junk DNA example I predict that three specific DNA patterns will be found at 9 specific places in the genome of white-tailed deer, but none of the three patterns will be found anywhere in the spider monkey genome.

     

  • In 1861, the first Archaeopteryx fossil was found. It was clearly a primitive bird with reptilian features. But, the fossil's head was very badly preserved. In 1872 Ichthyornis and Hesperornis were found. Both were clearly seabirds, but to everyone's astonishment, both had teeth. It was predicted that if we found a better-preserved Archaeopteryx, it too would have teeth. In 1877, a second Archaeopteryx was found, and the prediction turned out to be correct.

     

  • Almost all animals make Vitamin C inside their bodies. It was predicted that humans are descended from creatures that could do this, and that we had lost this ability. (There was a loss-of-function mutation, which didn't matter because our high-fruit diet was rich in Vitamin C.) When human DNA was studied, scientists found a gene which is just like the Vitamin C gene in dogs and cats. However, our copy has been turned off.

     

  • In "The Origin Of Species" (1859), Darwin said:
    "If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection."
    Chapter VI, Difficulties Of The Theory
    This challenge has not been met. In the ensuing 140 years, no such thing has been found. Plants give away nectar and fruit, but they get something in return. Taking care of other members of one's own species (kin selection) doesn't count, so ants and bees (and mammalian milk) don't count.

     

  • Darwin pointed out that the Madagascar Star orchid has a spur 30 centimeters (about a foot) long, with a puddle of nectar at the bottom. Now, evolution says that nectar isn't free. Creatures that drink it pay for it, by carrying pollen away to another orchid. For that to happen, the creature must rub against the top of the spur. So, Darwin concluded that the spur had evolved its length as an arms race. Some creature had a way to reach deeply without shoving itself hard against the pollen-producing parts. Orchids with longer spurs would be more likely to spread their pollen, so Darwin's gradualistic scenario applied. The spur would evolve to be longer and longer. From the huge size, the creature must have evolved in return, reaching deeper and deeper. So, he predicted in 1862 that Madagascar has a species of hawkmoth with a tongue just slightly shorter than 30 cm.

    The creature that pollinated that orchid was not learned until 1902, forty years later. It was indeed a moth, and it had a 25 cm tongue. And in 1988 it was proven that moth-pollinated short-spurred orchids did set less seed than long ones.

     

  • A thousand years ago, just about every remote island on the planet had a species of flightless bird. Evolution explains this by saying that flying creatures are particularly able to establish themselves on remote islands. Some birds, living in a safe place where there is no need to make sudden escapes, will take the opportunity to give up on flying. Hence, Evolution predicts that each flightless bird species arose on the island that it was found on. So, Evolution predicts that no two islands would have the same species of flightless bird. Now that all the world's islands have been visited, we know that this was a correct prediction.

     

  • The "same" protein in two related species is usually slightly different. A protein is made from a sequence of amino acids, and the two species have slightly different sequences. We can measure the sequences of many species, and cladistics has a mathematical procedure which tells us if these many sequences imply one common ancestral sequence. Evolution predicts that these species are all descended from a common ancestral species, and that the ancestral species used the ancestral sequence.

    This has been done for pancreatic ribonuclease in ruminants. (Cows, sheep, goats, deer and giraffes are ruminants.) Measurements were made on various ruminants. An ancestral sequence was computed, and protein molecules with that sequence were manufactured. When sequences are chosen at random, we usually wind up with a useless goo. However, the manufactured molecules were biologically active substances. Furthermore, they did exactly what a pancreatic ribonuclease is supposed to do - namely, digest ribonucleic acids.

     

  • An animal's bones contain oxygen atoms from the water it drank while growing. And, fresh water and salt water can be told apart by their slightly different mixture of oxygen isotopes. (This is because fresh water comes from water that evaporated out of the ocean. Lighter atoms evaporate more easily than heavy ones do, so fresh water has fewer of the heavy atoms.)

    Therefore, it should be possible to analyze an aquatic creature's bones, and tell whether it grew up in fresh water or in the ocean. This has been done, and it worked. We can distinguish the bones of river dolphins from the bones of killer whales.

    Now for the prediction. We have fossils of various early whales. Since whales are mammals, evolution predicts that they evolved from land animals. And, the very earliest of those whales would have lived in fresh water, while they were evolving their aquatic skills. Therefore, the oxygen isotope ratios in their fossils should be like the isotope ratios in modern river dolphins.

    It's been measured, and the prediction was correct. The two oldest species in the fossil record - Pakicetus and Ambulocetus - lived in fresh water. Rodhocetus, Basilosaurus and the others all lived in salt water.

The point is not that these prove evolution right. The point is that these were predictions that could have turned out to be wrong predictions. So, the people who made the predictions were doing science. The Theory of Evolution was also useful, in the sense that it suggested what evidence to look for, and where.
Last modified: 5 August 2001

43 posted on 03/29/2006 9:02:51 PM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: SampleMan; Lester Moore
A testable prediction of evolution? I will give you one if you promise to return the favor and either provide a testable prediction of ID or admit it isn't scientific. Deal?

And no, attempting "to break down the cell into working parts" is not a testable prediction. A prediction is a deduction - from the assumptions of the theory you prove a theorem and the phenomena to which the theorem maps are the prediction.

44 posted on 03/29/2006 9:07:29 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: Filo

My understanding is that ID has made functional predictions which are verifiable (and have been corroborated). For example, ID researchers made the prediction that all genetic material in a chromosome set (the genome)is designed for a purpose. This inclused the so-called "junk-DNA". This appears to have been demonstrated within the last two to three years.

ID hypothesizes that biological systems are the product of intention rather than luck and law. This hypotheisis is open to be disproved by scientific method. To reject it simply on principle is a philosophical point, but it is not justified by scientific method.

Design is assumed by biochemists who "reverse-engineer" biochemical machines, that is, take apart such systems in search of the "design decisions" that are built into their architecture. Design should be rejected (or accepted) based upon data. It should not be gerrymandered out of science, just because the methodological naturalists get uncomfortable with the concept of a "designer".


45 posted on 03/29/2006 9:08:07 PM PST by Bishop_Malachi
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To: metmom

It all comes down to this with ID:

1) Science is ordered.

2) Chances of Chaos generating such a degree of Order is miniscule, at best.

3) Therefore, the chances of some sort of intelligence manipulated things into order is great.

Now, whether you call this intelligence God, Allah, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster like atheists call it (It was the hand of the Spectre that created it in the DC Comic Universe, for example). Or alien manipulation, like a few believe (Xenu). Or even a web that is anchored in time (Dr. Who). Or from beings that existed before the Universe was created in the Big Bang, things are too ordered and structured.

That's the actual theory.

By the way, I would suggest those trying to argue using Darwin may want to sit down and actually read 'Origin of Species' and some of his follow up writings.


46 posted on 03/29/2006 9:21:41 PM PST by Lightfinger (Those that are ignorant of the past are doomed to repeat it. Progressive = National Socialist.)
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To: SampleMan

"let me be the first to say that I'm sure that everyone will be absolutely objective, collegial, and downright polite."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

whooooo.... catching my breath.... good one.


47 posted on 03/29/2006 9:22:34 PM PST by kpp_kpp
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To: edsheppa

"I will give you one if you promise to return the favor and either provide a testable prediction of ID or admit it isn't scientific."

as I am not a proponent of ID i'd happily admit for the sake of argument that it isn't scientific, does that mean you'd admit that macro-evolution and theories regarding the origin of life and matter are not scientific?


48 posted on 03/29/2006 9:26:45 PM PST by kpp_kpp
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To: AntiGuv
a conservative school district rejected the ID advocates en masse at the voting booth
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So....when did the voting mob have the right to crush freedom of conscience?

Evolution has profound political, cultural, as well as moral and ethical and religious consequences for all the children in the school.

When did the voting mob get the right to undermine and trash the most cherished family cultural and religious traditions of some while establishing the worldview ( with religious consequences) of others????

Government schools are an abomination. They should be abolished.

For most parents government schools are compulsory. They are a price-fixed monopoly and enormously expensive. They make private alternatives scarce and make homeschooling impossible by forcing many families to have both parents in the workforce to support the taxes that fund them.

The government then offers a fiendishly evil "choice": Use the government school and have your child's religious beliefs destroyed...or....have armed police at your door.

Some "choice"! ( sarcasm)

Solution: Begin the process of completely separation SCHOOL FROM STATE.

If there were no government schools the acrimony over evolution and ID would evaporate like dew on morning grass.
49 posted on 03/29/2006 9:31:17 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: wintertime

I'm willing to support the end of public schools (even though there's not a chance in heck it'll happen) if you answer one question to my satisfaction: What do you do about children whose parents cannot or will not have them educated?


50 posted on 03/29/2006 9:40:28 PM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: Avenger
It seems to me that before we can study intelligent design we should first have a scientific definition of "intelligent." What is the definition?

Hey! That's my line!

If your idea is the same as mine, the gist is that intelligence as we know it is a property or ability entirely dependent on the arrangement matter, in the form of the brain.

51 posted on 03/29/2006 9:44:38 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: Lightfinger

"Science is ordered."

The physical world appears to be ordered because it is only those aspects of the physical universe that can be succinctly described (approximated) by concise mathematical equations that are or can be studied by human beings. The limitations of the human mind biases those aspects of physical reality that we study to those which possess nice simple structure. However, there is no rational reason that there aren't vast vistas of physical reality that contain no structure whatsoever (i.e. are incompresible.)

"...things are too ordered and structured"

What level of order and structure would you expect if there were no intelligent designer? Please quantify. Also, please define intelligent and a way to test for this attribute.


52 posted on 03/29/2006 9:46:55 PM PST by Avenger
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To: SampleMan

Intelligent design? Why was Jesus crucified(not my will but thy will be done)? Ans : GOD was crucified in much the same way by the 24 "elders"(prior idea-entities like pharisee-academics), imagine HIS darkness before he, through an act of self sacrifice and pure faith, said : let there be LIGHT. If you repeat this 6000 years ago creation nonsense(actually from a half-***ed scientific study of the bible by an irish bishop named Usher, murphy was his middle name)you'll be quickly forgotten. No, it was 13.7 BILLION years ago from many different discoveries; but the truth of Intelligent Design remains : the 25th in the series of concept-iterations was/is GOD, the supreme, self sacrificing entity who made the big bang from which all else developed....Take the biblical phrase : "and the morning stars sang together" : astronomers are just now discovering that early epoch of the first generation's massive stars-supernovae whose shock waves created the "soap bubble" texture of galaxies strung thruout the universe. Point : science and theology are boh searches for TRUTH, disparage neither...


53 posted on 03/29/2006 9:51:29 PM PST by timer
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To: Bishop_Malachi
ID hypothesizes that biological systems are the product of intention rather than luck and law.

Scientific predictions must address facts, not interpretations.

54 posted on 03/29/2006 9:56:41 PM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
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To: wintertime

I couldn't disagree more.

I believe the availability of free education through public schools is one cornerstone of what makes this a great country.

To abolish public schools is to reserve education for the privileged.

That, in my opinion, is anti-American.

Do you know the public schools?

Have you been in them recently?

Do you have a family member who either teaches in them or attends them?

If not - then I suggest you educate yourself before perpetuating nonsense.


55 posted on 03/29/2006 9:57:04 PM PST by Air Force Brat
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To: SampleMan
For evolutionary change to occur, every single piece of its Rube Goldberg-like factory would have to mutate at exactly the same time, and each single mutation would have to be beneficial, or the cell would just die.

This is but one of many nonsensical assertions contained in this essay.

Every fertilized egg has a few transcription errors and mutations amongst its many thousands of genes. If this claim were correct, every last embryo would die before it got past the blob-of-cells stage.

56 posted on 03/29/2006 10:00:25 PM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
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To: Bishop_Malachi
For example, ID researchers made the prediction that all genetic material in a chromosome set (the genome)is designed for a purpose. This inclused the so-called "junk-DNA". This appears to have been demonstrated within the last two to three years.

There's a thread on this very topic: see Post 19

These guys removed mega base pairs from mouse DNA, the mice bred and had fertile offspring, and the researchers couldn't find *anything* wrong with them.

Doesn't *prove* that the missing DNA didn't have *some* use, but does cast a bit of doubt on the ID-inspired speculation.

I said "ID-inspired speculation" instead of "prediction of ID theory" because there is no agreement about the hypothetical designer's abilities or motives.

For example, some say it is God, but Behe swore that it could have died millions of years ago, as far as he could tell.

The speculation that there is no junk DNA is premised on a particular version of the hypothetical designer. What are these assumptions about it? Why shouldn't there be junk?

57 posted on 03/29/2006 10:08:49 PM PST by Virginia-American
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mega placemarker


58 posted on 03/29/2006 10:10:35 PM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: Lester Moore

Excellent question.


59 posted on 03/29/2006 10:23:25 PM PST by Frwy
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To: Avenger
Could you please give me a scientific definition of intelligent?

That is a surprising admission. Since you seem to expect no answer, the conclusion to your challenge is that science cannot say anything about intelligence. Why don't we just reduce evaluations in schools to dart board outcomes?

60 posted on 03/29/2006 10:54:16 PM PST by AndrewC (Darwinian logic -- It is just-so if it is just-so)
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