Posted on 03/28/2006 10:51:21 PM PST by goldstategop
Getting high can be bad. Putting people in prison for it is worse. And doing the latter doesn't stop the former.
I was once among the majority who believe that drug use must be illegal. But then I noticed that when vice laws conflict with the law of supply and demand, the conflict is ugly, and the law of supply and demand generally wins.
The drug war costs taxpayers about $40 billion. "Up to three quarters of our budget can somehow be traced back to fighting this war on drugs," said Jerry Oliver, then chief of police in Detroit, told me. Yet the drugs are as available as ever.
Oliver was once a big believer in the war. Not anymore. "It's insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again," he says. "If we did not have this drug war going on, we could spend more time going after robbers and rapists and burglars and murderers. That's what we really should be geared up to do. Clearly we're losing the war on drugs in this country."
No, we're "winning," according to the federal Drug Enforcement Administration, which might get less money if people thought it was losing. Prosecutors hold news conferences announcing the "biggest seizure ever." But what they confiscate makes little difference. We can't even keep drugs out of prisons -- do we really think we can keep them out of all of America?
Even as the drug war fails to reduce the drug supply, many argue that there are still moral reasons to fight the war. "When we fight against drugs, we fight for the souls of our fellow Americans," said President Bush. But the war destroys American souls, too. America locks up a higher percentage of her people than almost any other country. Nearly 4,000 people are arrested every day for mere possession of drugs. That's more people than are arrested for aggravated assault, burglary, vandalism, forcible rape and murder combined.
Authorities say that warns people not to mess with drugs, and that's a critical message to send to America's children. "Protecting the children" has justified many intrusive expansions of government power. Who wants to argue against protecting children?
I have teenage kids. My first instinct is to be glad cocaine and heroin are illegal. It means my kids can't trot down to the local drugstore to buy something that gets them high. Maybe that would deter them.
Or maybe not. The law certainly doesn't prevent them from getting the drugs. Kids say illegal drugs are no harder to get than alcohol.
Perhaps a certain percentage of Americans will use or abuse drugs -- no matter what the law says.
I cannot know. What I do know now, however, are some of the unintended consequences of drug prohibition:
1. More crime. Rarely do people get high and then run out to commit crimes. Most "drug crime" happens because the product is illegal. Since drug sellers can't rely on the police to protect their property, they form gangs and arm themselves. Drug buyers steal to pay the high black market prices. The government says alcohol is as addictive as heroin, but no one is knocking over 7-Elevens to get Budweiser.
2. More terrorism. The profits of the drug trade fund terrorists from Afghanistan to Colombia. Our herbicide-spraying planes teach South American farmers to hate America.
3. Richer criminal gangs. Alcohol prohibition created Al Capone. The gangs drug prohibition is creating are even richer, probably rich enough to buy nuclear weapons. Osama bin Laden was funded partly by drug money.
Government's declaring drugs illegal doesn't mean people can't get them. It just creates a black market, where even nastier things happen. That's why I have come to think that although drug addiction is bad, the drug war is worse.
Just thought you would enjoy the full quote.
Then explain what you meant by, "If you think you or your property have been damaged ... take them to court and try to convince an impartial jury that you were harmed and the extent of that harm so that you may gain restitution for your loss."
Do you deny that you only favor laws against acts that harm others through force or fraud? Do you deny that you oppose laws against behavior which does not harm others?
Sure it does. It even allows the government to take your life.
"Our Constitution guarantees individual freedoms."
Huh? Our federal constitution recognizes individual rights. It even protects some of those rights from federal infringement.
But maybe you can give me an example of an individual freedom that is guaranteed by our Constitution.
"If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? The organizers maintain that society, when left undirected, rushes headlong to its inevitable destruction because the instincts of the people are so perverse. The legislators claim to stop this suicidal course and to give it a saner direction. Apparently, then, the legislators and the organizers have received from Heaven an intelligence and virtue that place them beyond and above mankind.
"They would be the shepherds over us, their sheep. Certainly such an arrangement presupposes that they are naturally superior to the rest of us. And certainly we are fully justified in demanding from the legislators and organizers proof of this natural superiority." -- Frederick Bastiat, The Law (1850)
Of course it is. It's right there in the 9th amendment along with the right to smoke dope.
Robert Paulsen: My question concerned your argument that laws should be based on harm.169
Zon: You cannot quote me anywhere on this thread where I made that argument because I never did and you know it."172
Then explain...
Just get over yourself and admit you strawman error. If you can't demonstrate that modicum of honesty you deserve no further response. I repeat: Admit your error and then perhaps I'll continue the discussion of what you wrote and what I wrote. I will not engage in your strawman arguments nor let you "put words in my mouth".
"It's right there in the 9th amendment along with the right to smoke dope".
Your arguments are extremely disingenuous. As always.
Too many people get high off these WOD threads. But then there's little harm in that.
"But maybe you can give me an example of an individual freedom that is guaranteed by our Constitution".
Oh, the right to keep and bear arms, the right to worship as you please, the right to a fair trial, the right to due process...
You might even be able to think of a few yourself.
Correlation is not causation.
Drugs have been illegal for 75 years and we have had the "Drug War" for 35 years, how damn long do you think we should keep spending 40 billion on the DEA alone plus the state and local costs? We have more people in prison than any other 4 countries in the world.
My real question though is who annointed you and people like you shove your morals down other peoples throats? I'm not a druggie, hell I don't even drink alcohol. The thing is though that so long as they aren't bothering other people I could care less about the people who do drugs. I see this war on drugs as encouraging these people to steal as well as commiting other crimes to keep a few other (dealers) criminals rich. Forget the drug war, spend the money on education and treatment. Let the government supervise the distribution of drugs and see what happens to crime.
It's winning in AZ concerning meth. Police have cracked down on meth labs but meth supply is still abundant due to imports from superlabs in Mexico. According to one TV news story I watched, Mexico's importation of the key ingredient pseudo-ephedrine has soared from 30 tons to over 200 tons in ten years. Here's one example story:
http://www.oregonlive.com/special/oregonian/meth/stories/index.ssf?/oregonian/meth/mexico_math.html
Oh, I bet if you asked them, every one of them would say that they committed the crime because they were on drugs.
"Oh, an individual right. You originally said individual freedom and that kinda threw me".
You are very easily "thrown".
Your arguments hold no water, RP.
Keep it up, you make yourself look more and more foolish with each of your posts.
"I hate drug users, dealers and apologists. I DON'T SEE ANY VIABLE OPTIONS."
Actually there are very viable options. That is to teach the skill of reducing/eliminating internalized PAIN. Also learning how not to cause it in the first place. This can be accomplished starting in childhood. I started learning these skill shortly after our second child was born. He would observe me discharging internalized pain, and began to use the skills himself. In kindergarden he came home very angry at some children who had picked on him. I suggested he go to our sound proofed room and let out some feelings. He put a pillow on a mattress on the floor and started to jump up and down on it screaming and yelling at the %^*()(*&&^^ who had made him miserable. After a few minutes he stopped, smiled and said "I feel much better now, Mommy," and went off to play.
In the 5th grade his favorite teacher was looking very sad one day. At the end of the class, which was also at the end of the day, he went up to her and said she looked very sad and it was OK to cry, and gave her a little pat on the shoulder. She burst into tears, but stopped crying and smiled a few minutes later. My son came home feeling very empowered that he had been able to help another human being.
Some simple techniques. For ANGER, if you feel it in the shoulders get a punching bag. Or kneel facing a bed or sofa. If you feel it in the legs get an old tire, or wedge something soft into a corner. Kick or punch while at the same time cursing out the cause of your misery, keep doing this until you feel better. Sometimes you will want to cry, go ahead and cry until you feel better (this is especially hard for men, but do it anyway). If you are angry at someone close, family, boss, coworker, do this first, then talk to them when you feel rational and calm.
For PAIN and GRIEF, put on some sad music and have a good, long, hard cry. If you feel like screaming, scream into your pillow, or turn up the TV, or go out into the country. Keep discharing until you feel a lot better. This can often be 90 minutes or more. In fact this timing may be related to the 90 minute sleep cycle. For woman, releasing pain, will often reveal underlying anger, then revert to the paragraph above.
These are skills which can be taught, or they can be utilized and adapted without outside help by many, especially those with less severe distress.
ONE BIG QUESTION. How many here have actually converted your distress/disgust about the War on Drugs to action by contacting your elected representatives? Tell them to get rid of mandatory minimums, decriminalize lesser offenses. Put more resources into treatment rather than incarceration. Or whatever other solution you favor. Don't just COMPLAIN here at FR. If you are not part of the solution, are you part of the problem?? Right now politicians are afraid to make waves because they do not realize how many on both right and left think the WOD has proved an expensive failure. Let them know.
Mojave has been fighting the good fight on these threads. How about joining us? We can actually agree on a thread for once.
Are you sure you're on the right forum? I think you meant to take a left turn into DU back there.
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