Natalee Holloway Extended Discussion Thread 19

[RGVTx]

Natalee Holloway - Extended Thread 1

Natalee Holloway - Extended Thread 2

Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 3

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Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 17

Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 18

[RGVTx]

MANSUR said it was because the gardener has always stated that Current Suspect S. KALPOE quickly ducked down out of sight.
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I had wondered if the gardener had seen the body in the backseat in motion or not. It being in motion tells me it was not Natalee. Doesn't mean Natalee wasn't also in that car. Just that the person the gardener saw wouldn't have been Natalee. Why would she be ducking down? No reason I can think of.

[presently no screen name]

Why would she be ducking down?

I believe she was either taped up or not alive at this point. Maybe papa in the back seat?

[Vn_survivor_67-68]

I used "Go to my PC" from jorans house to make it seem that I was at home when in fact I was up to no good at Jorans where there were at least 3 PC's. Joran and I were chatting online from different rooms in his and Paulus' house that nite.

D. Pack Cowpoke.

[RGVTx]

I agree, that Natalee was probably dead or near death at this point in time. There was a reason they tried to hide their faces.

It could have been Paulus, but I'm leaning towards Paulus not knowing what was going on until after the boys had done their damage. I just can't see Paulus knowing of such a serious event and allowing Joran out of his sight immediately afterward. Not Paulus who nervously sweats buckets when under pressure. I think Paulus entered the picture during the cover up phase.

I think the boys buried Natalee near the fisherman's huts. Joran keeps leading us back there while pointing to Satish having opportunity to harm Natalee after dropping Joran off at home. I think Paulus was made aware after the Alabama posse arrived. Then the 'no body, no crime' cover up began and the body was moved.

Can someone refresh my memory about where it was that TES found what Tim Miller described as a shallow grave on the beach? Was it near the fishermen's huts?

[RGVTx]

I'm not computer savvy enough to know how it could be done, but I figured there must be a way. You seem to know the answer to that. I strongly suspect the computer records are falsified. Deepak has lots of computer experience considering the job he had.

[truthluva]

Can someone refresh my memory about where it was that TES found what Tim Miller described as a shallow grave on the beach? Was it near the fishermen's huts? The shallow 'grave' was no where near the Fishermans Huts. Someone came up to Tim while they were searching another area and told him about the spot. That guy was never seen again. IIRC, it was almost on the other side of the island, closer to where they found the duct tape. Part of the Aruba BS. I think something went on near the fishemans huts, but not sure what. I think that may have been a meeting place. I think she died at the VDS place, probably Joran's apt. I have always thought she was buried near the lighthouse, temporarily, and then moved either out to sea or to the quarry in Moko.

[RGVTx]

Thanks, Truthluva, for that info.
So maybe that was the shallow grave the boys first buried Natalee, just not at the fisherman's huts. Maybe it was just the gardener's story that made Joran realize he needed a cover story for having been seen near the fisherman's huts/Marriot area at that time.

Okay, Red from Scared Monkeys posted an interesting post recently that makes sense as to why Joran is leading us to the fisherman's huts. Read below:
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It is the contention of many that Joran Van der Sloot is lying about the beach story. IE. It never happened. They were never on the beach. There is some evidence that pointed that Joran had made the whole beach story up as the initial lie. If you all remember the Movie The Jagged Edge, a crime was committed earlier to make it appear that the actual crime was done by another killer rather than the husband. If this crime had taken place 5 days earlier and was reported, people in the police would have known that there was another predator out there. Thus the made up story that the Kalpoes state was done by the VDS family would have had possibly knowledge of this crime against this woman and thus ... we went to the beach story was created. Thoughts?

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=3883&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=540
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Red is referring to the woman we just heard about who was hasseled on the beach near the fisherman's huts five days before Natalee disappeared. Paulus had the means to know about this woman's police report at any point after she reported it.

[RGVTx]

Pineapple Taco(Joran's US attorney) coming up on O'Reilly.

[seekthetruth]

"I think she died at the VDS place, probably Joran's apt. I have always thought she was buried near the lighthouse, temporarily, and then moved either out to sea or to the quarry in Moko."

I also believe that Natalee died in Joran's appartment. I also believe she might have been buried on the VDS property. Remember, no one is allowed to search there!

[truthluva]

I read Red's assessment and it definitely could be exactly as he says. Paulus would have had access to details of this incident and could have used it to help them with a fall back story, since they had already messed up by concocting the 'dropped her at the HI' story. Paulus would have known that story was problematic and gave them the Marriott beach story while lounging around the pool.

[RGVTx]

El Tacopina just used that woman's story to promote the possibility of something bad happening to Natalee after Joran left her at the fishermans huts. Reds theory looks dead on target.

[presently no screen name]

near the fisherman's huts


Recently it was posted that someone while on the beach saw a white Nissan (could be rumor plus I don't believe a times was listed). PVDS has a white Nissan that was confiscated. Ya think papa has control of joran to 'not allow' him out of his site - even during test week?

[truthluva]

I also believe that Natalee died in Joran's appartment. I also believe she might have been buried on the VDS property. Remember, no one is allowed to search there!

I thought about this for a long time, over the summer. To me, it doesn't seem like a very good plan to bury someone on your property. I mean, you won't live there forever. Not to mention taking a chance that the body could accidently be discovered later on.

I think the reason for them not searching the entire location is because she was actually there at one point. Therefore, we are hearing Joran's flimsy story about them sitting outside his house that night.

The rock quarry was being searched by TES in late June. They asked the media to stay back so as not to interfere with the search. The media did interfere...the Dutch media. I sent an email to TES asking for more information regarding that search asking why it was terminated. No answer back from them. That location is like an underwater landfill. Lots of stuff thrown off in there. It's very murky with little to no visibility in the water. Plus...it's close to the VDS property.

Stay with me right here....Shango said the "Young Babylonians and Shivas do not build sand castles "...meaning they were never hanging out on the beach. Shango also said "Mary never heard the buoy toll"...I think this means she was not taken out to sea. I know the Shango posts are a bit controversial in terms of whether or not these posts were some kind of hoax or not. But, damn some of the stuff he/she was saying makes sense sometime.

On June 26 Shango said "If the door to eden is to be opened with that key, it will be tomorrow or forever remained closed " The quarry search began and ended on June 27th. The Dutch media created some interference with that search. Why? Isn't it always the American media that normally causes problems? But in this case it was the Dutch media. Why>

[presently no screen name]

The shallow 'grave'

I agree. They may have gone to the beach first, then they were seen by gardener and went elsewhere - not populated area (shallow grave).

I first thought his apt but now I'm thinking, she refused to get out of the car and it all happened there. She was probably screaming and they gagged her and she could have suffocated, IMO. It all went down very quick.

[truthluva]

I try to leave all options open, but I just don't think they ever went to the beach. Joran's story is just too drippy sweet to be real. I don't buy his lame explanation about the shoes, condom and that Natalee wanted to be left alone there. None of that rings true...at least not to me. He is keeping the line of fire off of his home and the lighthouse by making meaningless references to those two places because he is not sure if the car was seen at either place. If Natalee was found near the lighthouse, well he has set the stage for Natalee finding someone else to take her to 'see the sharks'.

[RGVTx]

Ya think papa has control of joran to 'not allow' him out of his site - even during test week?
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Remember Anita called Paulus to have him call Joran and tell him to shut up about Natalee?
This was after Paulus and Anita were aware of Joran being the last one seen with Natalee and meeting the Alabama posse. So, yes, I do think Paulus could pull the reigns in on Joran, especially immediately after the fact. Paulus would have been in a high state of paranoia at this time. Not so sure Joran would feel the paranoia as deeply. That paranoia could have made Paulus take control of the whole situation. I could be wrong...

[RGVTx]

I have to vote for the apartment as the scene of assault, if not death. I don't believe three guys sexually assaulted a girl in a car or on the beach when a perfectly good apartment was available. The blood in Deepak's car, per the FBI, could have been from transportation of the body. Or an injured Natalee.

That's an interesting thought about the gardener's sighting of them. They might have been considering their options for disposing of her when the gardener spotted them. Then a change in plan was necessary.

[RGVTx]

Coming up on Greta...Deepak's June 9th statement to ALE.

[RGVTx]

On June 26 Shango said "If the door to eden is to be opened with that key, it will be tomorrow or forever remained closed " The quarry search began and ended on June 27th. The Dutch media created some interference with that search. Why?
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Very interesting!
I've never figured out if Shango is factual or pure BS.
Someday, maybe we'll find out.

[truthluva]

Well, at first I thought Shango was pure BS. Then a few of us here started to look at it a little closer. A lot of repetitive posts and a verbal war with Simian (who I think was Julia Renfro and company...just an opinion...no facts to support that).

Whoever Shango is he/she isn't buying the beach story...and he/she let everyone know that back in late June.