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FR Debate: Intelligent Design vs. Birth Defects, Can They Be Reconciled?
Discovery Health & Multiple Medical Sites ^ | 11/11/05

Posted on 11/11/2005 4:47:36 PM PST by Wolfstar

Each year in the United States, about 150,000 babies are born with birth defects ranging from mild to life threatening. While progress has been made in the detection and treatment of birth defects, they remain the leading cause of death in the first year of life. Birth defects are often the result of genetic and environmental factors, but the causes of well over half of all birth defects are currently unknown.

Following is a partial list of birth defects:

Achondroplasia/Dwarfism

Hemochromatosis

Alpha-1 Antitrypsin Deficiency

Huntington's Disease

Anencephaly

Hydrocephalus

Arnold-Chiari Malformation

Klinefelter's Syndrome

Ataxia Telangiectasia

Leukodystrophies

Blood coagulation disorders/Hemophilia

Marfan Syndrome

Brain malformations/genetic brain disorders

Metabolic disorders

Canavan Disease

Muscular Dystrophy

Cancer: Neonatal, newborn, infant and childhood

Neural tube defects/Spina Bifida

Cerebral Palsy

Neurofibromatosis

Cleft lip and palate

Niemann-Pick Disease

Club foot/club hand

Osteogenesis Imperfecta (brittle bone disease)

Congenital heart disease

Phenylketonuria

Conjoined twins

Prader-Willi Syndrome

Cystic Fibrosis

Progeria (advanced aging in children)

Down Syndrome

Sickle Cell Anemia

Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome

Spinal Muscular Atrophy

Eye, ear and speech defects

Tay-Sachs Disease

Fragile X Syndrome

Tuberous Sclerosis

Gaucher's Disease

Turner's Syndrome

Genital and urinary tract defects

Wilson's Disease

Some birth/genetic defects, such as near-sightedness, are mild and do not affect the person's ability to lead a normal life. Others are so severe that the person has no chance to even live. Efficiency and economy are part of intelligently designed systems. If the "design" of human systems is so intelligent, why do tragic inefficiencies such as the following occur at all? Warning, the linked photos are graphic medical images, and are very, very sad.

Conjoined twins, i.e., monozygous twinning in which there is fusion of the twins. The popular term is "Siamese" twins. This happens when identical twin embryos become fused together during the very early stages of development. Conjoined twins occur in an estimated one in 200,000 births, with approximately half being stillborn. Here are links to three photos of severely conjoined twins:

Photo 1: one head, two bodies

Photo 2: essentially one torso between two babies

Photo 3: profound fusion

Neural tube defects are are one of the more common congenital anomalies. Such defects result from improper embryonic neural tube closure. The most minimal defect is called spina bifida, with failure of the vertebral body to completely form, but the defect is not open. Open neural tube defects with lack of a skin covering, can include a meningocele, in which meninges protrude through the defect. Here is a link to a severe neural tube defect.

Photo 4

Defects of the head/brain: In the linked photo a large encephalocele that merges with the scalp above is protruding from the back of the head. The encephalocele extends down to partially cover a rachischisis on the back. This baby also has a retroflexed head from iniencephaly.

Photo 5

The form of neural tube defect in the next linked photo is known as exencephaly. The cranial vault is not completely present, but a brain is present because it was not completely exposed to amniotic fluid. Such an event is very rare. It may be part of craniofacial clefts associated with the limb-body wall complex, which results from early amnion disruption.

Photo 6

Congenital and pediatric neoplasms: One type that can occur is a teratoma. The next linked photo shows a large nasopharyngeal teratoma that is protruding from the oral cavity.

Photo 7

Tumors: In the next linked photo there is a large mass involving the left upper arm and left chest of the baby. This congenital neoplasm turned out to be a lymphangioma. This baby and the one in Photo 9 were essentially riddled with cancer before birth and shortly afterwards.

Photo 8

Next is a gross neuroblastoma arising in the right adrenal gland. It is the most common pediatric malignancy in infancy, and 75% of cases are diagnosed in children less than 4 years old. These tumors most often present as an abdominal or mediastinal mass.

Photo 9


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: birth; crevolist; defects; design; genetic; intelligent; klinefeltersyndrome; kyrieelieson; philosophy; religion; theology
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To: labette
Do you really believe God hates you as much as you hate him?

Bizzare question in the context of this thread. This has nothing to do with whether or not God hates me or anyone else.

61 posted on 11/11/2005 5:24:05 PM PST by Wolfstar (Whatever happened to "These Colors Don't Run?")
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To: Wolfstar

Are you the Wolfstar who does the marvelous photo series, "A Day in the Life of President Bush?"


62 posted on 11/11/2005 5:24:53 PM PST by Liberty Wins (Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of all who threaten it.)
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To: Wolfstar
>>>"It's unfortunate that you consider an attempt to explore the question "dumb."<<<
If "Perfection" is your baseline and "Defect" is the anomaly you have listed many in the "defect" category, could you post a comparable list (for comparison) of "Perfection"

In my Original post I mentioned I-10 and a Pothole, another analogy would be say a Christmas Tree Farm from a distance where all the Christmas Trees look "Perfect" but the closer you get you realize that they aren't. I guess "Perfection" is easier to attain from a great distance.

And I disagree, your intent is to start an argument, you spent way too much time on prep of the post to settle for anything less. I'd stick around but I won't waste my time on a disingenuous assumption of intent.

TT
63 posted on 11/11/2005 5:25:25 PM PST by TexasTransplant (NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSET)
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To: Wolfstar
[ Such cases are not just tragic, but extremely cruel. They not only argue against "intelligent design," but also are capable of shaking one's faith in religion. ]

Most likely caused or partially caused by long term inbreeding and incest which are known genetic monkey wrenches.. course chronic drug abuse including alcohol can be a long term factor as well..

You know, pretty much as the bible lays out..

64 posted on 11/11/2005 5:25:43 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: From many - one.
Down's syndrome kids are not suffering. Wolfstar is referring to children who are.

Another falsehood. He included Downs Syndrome in his list in the OP.

65 posted on 11/11/2005 5:25:59 PM PST by highlander_UW (I don't know what my future holds, but I know Who holds my future)
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To: NVD
wouldn't the result be devolution

The contrary to evolution in involution, not devolution. Evolution does not imply linear progress, even though Huxley and the other soldiers of Darwinism took that stance.

66 posted on 11/11/2005 5:26:11 PM PST by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: Wolfstar
I don't see it in terms of good and evil.

Your original post characterizes these defects as "cruel"; that is a substitute for evil. The answer to why a designer would permit "cruelty" in his design is that he is either incompetent or malevolent.

If the word "intelligent" is paired with the word "design," then that conjures in my mind ideas of efficiency.

Birth defects (or defects of any kind for that matter) are obviously inefficient. The answer to why the designer would permit inefficiency is because he is either incompetent or malevolent.

It's that which I am trying to get to, not religious connotations.

The religious connotations are unavoidable. Only dissemblers claim that intelligent design is about anything other than deities.

If intelligent design is to be taught in schools as a an alternative scientific theory, I want to understand its underpinnings.

Oh, well if that's all you want then why didn't you say so? Here ya go!

Bible: New Revised Standard Version

67 posted on 11/11/2005 5:26:15 PM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: Wolfstar

The underpinnings of intelligent design are science.

Scientist have observed order and concluded that it is not chaos and not properly explained by randomness. This is the predominate view throughout all of science-- when one observes order we presume design or intention.

It is only in the radical Darwinian community is there an adamant faithful insistence upon order must be caused by randomness.


68 posted on 11/11/2005 5:26:16 PM PST by lonestar67
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To: secretagent
How so? Perhaps an eternity of bliss in the afterlife awaits the afflicted.

Cruel in the context of this world. Cruel to the baby, for the parents and extended family.

Do you believe in the theory of intelligent design? If so, then perhaps you might turn your own question around and share how the theory reconciles inefficiencies such as the list of birth defects provided above.

69 posted on 11/11/2005 5:27:00 PM PST by Wolfstar (Whatever happened to "These Colors Don't Run?")
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To: AntiGuv

The designer is not necessarily God.

Do we wish to talk theology or ID?


70 posted on 11/11/2005 5:27:34 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: labette
Do you really believe God hates you as much as you hate him?

Intelligent design has nothing to do with God. Either that or its advocates have committed perjury.

But the more important question is, when ID is taught in school, how are these questions about the motives and methods of the designer going to be answered?

71 posted on 11/11/2005 5:27:48 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: lonestar67

Total order is total randomness.


72 posted on 11/11/2005 5:27:48 PM PST by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: Wolfstar
If the "design" of human systems is so intelligent....

You might benefit from reading Behe's book "Darwin's black box". As a biochemist, he lays out a fairly detailed explanation of what ID and IC are.

73 posted on 11/11/2005 5:28:12 PM PST by Tom Bombadil
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To: xzins

Tell me who the hypothesized designer is then and we can talk about that instead.


74 posted on 11/11/2005 5:28:13 PM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: xzins

Tell me who the hypothesized designer is then and we can talk about that instead.


75 posted on 11/11/2005 5:28:19 PM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: dhs12345
We would all have to be very smart (smarter than any human) to know why these diseases exist.

With all due respect, I find it quite interesting that I am asking these questions in the context of intelligent design as a scientific theory, while most of the responses have ignored intelligent design and gone straight to religion.

76 posted on 11/11/2005 5:28:56 PM PST by Wolfstar (Whatever happened to "These Colors Don't Run?")
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To: RightWhale

oiweoiwnguierboandiocnr

asdvbnoasdnviwnvionwv

asodnviosdnvoinsdvnw

qwienfnb;rthqpidslgerhiuffasd


please allow billions of years for my above response to emerge as the brilliance that it is


77 posted on 11/11/2005 5:29:24 PM PST by lonestar67
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To: Wolfstar

Then perhaps you need to address the question to a control group who has no contamination from living in the world. Good luck with that. Plus then, you might have a real experiment.


78 posted on 11/11/2005 5:31:34 PM PST by zeeba neighba (no crocs!)
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To: AntiGuv
I am sure with a tiny bit of effort you can find someone around here to go through a bunch of rhetorical acrobatics trying to explain the "Problem of Evil" some other way.

AntiGuv, with all due respect, I am not interested in the "problem of evil." I am interested in intelligent design as a scientific theory to be taught in schools.

I would love to discuss the thoughts in your first paragraph, but not in the context of good and evil.

79 posted on 11/11/2005 5:32:00 PM PST by Wolfstar (Whatever happened to "These Colors Don't Run?")
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To: Wolfstar
Paley's arguement was published in 1800. Something purposely designed must have a designer. The question should be redirected to whether either we, life, or the universe has a perceptable purpose.

I would say that appears to be our job, to create purpose.

80 posted on 11/11/2005 5:33:16 PM PST by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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