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Evolution in the bible, says Vatican
News.com ^ | 11/7/05 | Mikey_1962

Posted on 11/07/2005 12:05:04 PM PST by Mikey_1962

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly. His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. Cardinal Poupard said that it was important for Catholic believers to know how science saw things so as to "understand things better".

His statements were interpreted in Italy as a rejection of the "intelligent design" view, which says the universe is so complex that some higher being must have designed every detail.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.com.au ...


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KEYWORDS: catholic; crevolist; religion
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To: The Red Zone
Where had that papyrus been? Many documents were sealed in jars; if inverted (lid down) and the body of the jar did not leak, that would keep water out.

A fair point.

Of course, there's the question of why there is no appreciable gap in the Egpytians' record-keeping, which would be expected if their civilization was wiped out by a massive deluge. And why their records don't mention such cataclysm.

241 posted on 11/07/2005 2:03:05 PM PST by Palisades (Cthulhu in 2008! Why settle for the lesser evil?)
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To: Palisades
"Your understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is fundamentally flawed."

Can you briefly tell me how?

I'd appreciate it.

242 posted on 11/07/2005 2:03:20 PM PST by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: jcb8199
"Kinda like the mistake of mankind ascribing his own methods to God's--days, hours, etc."

Kind of.

Ecclesiastes Ch 3, V 15 "That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past."

It is a SERIOUS mistake to think God is constrained to his inanimate creation called "time". Time was created for the posterity of the human race, not as master to the Creator.

243 posted on 11/07/2005 2:03:55 PM PST by azhenfud (He who always is looking up seldom finds others' lost change.)
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To: The Red Zone

"at the first self righteous church of pascagoula? (mississippi squirrel revival)"




No, actually at a very conservative Presbyterian church, where the serious discussions had to do with predestination...the central issue for Presbyterians, and the cause for the split of that church into several other denominations.

Fascinating stuff, doctrine.


244 posted on 11/07/2005 2:04:37 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Junior
How would "irreducibly complex" features arise?

Just of the top of my non-scientist head, how about time-release genetic code or pre-programmed environmental changes?

Again, I have not see ID advocates say one way or another on the tinkering aspect. Am I missing something or is that requirement just your interpertation of ID?

245 posted on 11/07/2005 2:04:48 PM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: MineralMan
but the major religions all have deities with human attributes.

The God of the bible does not have a human nature. Jesus did of course, but only after the Incarnation.

246 posted on 11/07/2005 2:05:40 PM PST by zeeba neighba (no crocs!)
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To: MineralMan

The unified deities are rare, and the creation account for all but one -- the bible's -- begins as though something else existed with the deity. The Coyoteman can furnish us with any number of these tales. The Hebrew story prevails out of proportion to its initial readership, not because of chance but because of logic.


247 posted on 11/07/2005 2:06:21 PM PST by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: highlander_UW
Well, according to the post just before yours (165 I believe) you are incorrect regarding the numbers of catholics.

Certainly, the Catholic Church is probably over-inclusive when it comes to who it includes in its numbers. But that's probably done by every other denomination. So, it doesn't likely change the percentages much.

I know of no non-catholics that place any value in what the vatican proclaims,

So, non-Catholic Christians do not agree with Vatican on issues of abortion, gay marriage etc.?

248 posted on 11/07/2005 2:06:45 PM PST by Palisades (Cthulhu in 2008! Why settle for the lesser evil?)
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To: Coyoteman
Top 12 world religions by population: Christianity: 2.1 billion (Catholics: 1.07 billion)

This statistic would support what I stated, thanks. However, my real point was really more focused on the term Christian and not specifically the emphasis on religion. For each "religion" there is a good deal of nominal (in name only) adherents. In many places people do not take any faith serious but someone builds a church or mosque and proclaims all the inhabitants as adherents to that group all of a sudden...but no real change has taken place in the person (in the case of Christianity) or awareness of their inclusion in that religion (in the case of other religions such as Islam).

249 posted on 11/07/2005 2:06:52 PM PST by highlander_UW (I don't know what my future holds, but I know Who holds my future)
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To: jcb8199
Well since Catholics are the majority of the world's Christians, then the original quote was correct.

According to the statistics that someone posted here that is factually UNtrue...and in any case, the vatican does not speak for Christianity, just for catholicism.

250 posted on 11/07/2005 2:08:21 PM PST by highlander_UW (I don't know what my future holds, but I know Who holds my future)
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To: FeeinTennessee
"... planets aligned so neatly, everything in order."

Never studied astronomy, eh?

251 posted on 11/07/2005 2:08:40 PM PST by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
Can you briefly tell me how?

The 2nd law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. The Earth is not a closed system- it receives massive inputs of energy from the sun.

So, the evolution of life on this planet doesn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

252 posted on 11/07/2005 2:09:10 PM PST by Palisades (Cthulhu in 2008! Why settle for the lesser evil?)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

A short answer for a complex question:

Judaism in Old Testament times was created to differentiate the 12 tribes from others in the region they inhabited. The Old Testament was the compilation of the oral tradition and history of those tribes.

The Sabbath was a natural break in time, 1/4 of the moon's cycle. Everything then was based on the moon's cycles, because it was the most reliable time-keeper other than the day.

Having a day of rest and worship was important in keeping the commonality of these 12 tribes together. A history that linked them was another. 10 basic laws were another.

It's the history of the birth of a religion. It's fascinating.

Do I believe in the Bible? As a historical document of the beginning and evolution of a regional religion...sure. As the stories that held a people together...Sure.

I can say the same about Hindu scripture or even the Quran. I can say the same about the scriptures of every religion that has scriptures. They're very functional in creating and maintaining a culture.


253 posted on 11/07/2005 2:09:45 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MineralMan

Predestination arguments can drive a person stark raving mad crazy. The problem is a system that attempts somehow to work with the existential fact that men do choose, while doctrinally denying that they do. I know; I tried. Suffice it to say I am no longer a tulip eater. But I am a Christian.


254 posted on 11/07/2005 2:10:32 PM PST by The Red Zone (Florida, the sun-shame state, and Illinois the chicken injun.)
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To: vpintheak
You are spot on. We have no physical record of all the buffalo slaughtered in the Plains because they turned to dust because they weren't covered. Things happen a lot more quickly than what many of our scientists say they do.

I have a case in point. Look into Mt Saint Helen's and you will see examples of rapid erosion when large streams of water quickly move. (grand canyon???) You will also see an entire forest buried by silt, at the bottom of spirit lake. (petrified forest in Yellow stone?? Scientist think that it took millions of years to cover this forest HA!) it took minutes. Please if you are interested check out some of the web sites. Mt St. Helen's debunked a lot of theories about the evolution.

255 posted on 11/07/2005 2:13:06 PM PST by Coffee_drinker (Since Bush became president, the taliban are gone, saddam is gone, Khadaffi is neutered, arafat died)
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To: Palisades
Certainly, the Catholic Church is probably over-inclusive when it comes to who it includes in its numbers. But that's probably done by every other denomination. So, it doesn't likely change the percentages much.

I agree that over-inclusion is not limited to the catholic church. Although, your assumption is that the over-inclusion is at a relatively equal rate between catholics and non-catholics. I don't believe that to be a sound assumption, but in all honesty neither of us know the hearts of 2 billion people so neither of us have the ability to present something approaching proof on the matter...simply evidences that would seem more anecdotal (and they would likely be accurate in both directions)

So, non-Catholic Christians do not agree with Vatican on issues of abortion, gay marriage etc.?

There is some agreement on these issues, however the source of the agreement is only to the extent that the vatican agrees with the Bible. That is to say, any agreement from non-catholics is not based upon it being proclaimed by the vatican but rather because it is found in the bible.

256 posted on 11/07/2005 2:13:22 PM PST by highlander_UW (I don't know what my future holds, but I know Who holds my future)
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To: zeeba neighba

"The God of the bible does not have a human nature."

Oh, I'd disagree with that.

That deity had a creative impulse...as do humans.
That deity was in charge of humans, so it made laws.
That deity got ticked off when its underlings didn't follow its laws.
That deity killed every human on the planet, except one family, because folks didn't follow its laws.

Sounds pretty human to me.


257 posted on 11/07/2005 2:13:28 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Palisades

Thanks.


258 posted on 11/07/2005 2:13:43 PM PST by TheClintons-STILLAnti-American
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To: The Red Zone

It's only a paradox, and from a thorough reading of both Old and New Testaments, one sees that The Lord loves to speak in parables and paradox.


259 posted on 11/07/2005 2:14:19 PM PST by zeeba neighba (no crocs!)
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To: Cicero
"You can say more loosely that each human conception is miraculous, because God takes an active part in forming the new soul. Or you can go further and point out that the universe would cease to exist if God did not continue to sustain it. But that's not the way the term is ordinarily used in its strict sense."

I think that more closely matches my view. And I say the following not to provoke a fight, but to highlight why we see the same thing in slightly different ways...the way the term "miracle" is "ordinarily" used depends on your background. Yours is obviously Catholic. Mine is not. I would hesitate to call either of us absolutely correct. Nor do I think our differences on this point are that significant or even that important.

260 posted on 11/07/2005 2:14:28 PM PST by Rokke
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